Casey Brown: This Will Change How You Think About Pricing Forever

[00:00:00] Introduction to Casey Brown and Pricing

[00:00:00] Charles Eide: You guys this week, I am so pumped to bring you my next guest, Casey Brown. Casey Brown of Boost Pricing is the number one authority in my book when it comes to how to price your product and grow your business and reclaim profits that you have been leaving on the table. This week is gonna be all about helping you understand pricing and its impact on your profit.

I can’t tell you how stoked I am to sit down with her. So let’s light this candle.

Before we get to the episode, will you do me a favor and subscribe to Cleared for Takeoff? It’s one little thing that you can do to help us in our channel so that we can continue to give you great content. Thanks so much and I hope you enjoy the episode. Casey Brown. It is so good to have you. My goodness.

[00:01:00] Casey Brown: I’m really excited. 

[00:01:01] Charles Eide: I am. I have so many questions for you. What is pricing? 

[00:01:08] What is Pricing? Understanding Value

[00:01:08] Casey Brown: Pricing is simply a measure of value. So it’s, uh, it’s not connected to your cost. It’s not connected to, uh, what you hope you can get paid. It’s connected to the value that you deliver, the value that you can demonstrate to your customers the value they perceive.

So it’s a number, but in absence of context and numbers meaningless. So if I said to you, that’s 500 bucks a lot of money, I’d say, I don’t know. Is it for a pack of gum or a car, or a t-shirt or a, like, what are we talking about here? And absence of context, numbers don’t mean anything. And so we’ve gotta create the context in the mind of the customer around value.

So it’s a, it’s just a, it’s a measure of stored value 

[00:01:45] Charles Eide: that’s, uh, that’s interesting because pricing seems to affect every single person on the planet. 

[00:01:52] Casey Brown: If you buy anything or sell anything, you interact with this. 

[00:01:57] Charles Eide: Now you’ve kind of made pricing your, um, like your thing. Like I, I know a lot of people that teach a lot of things.

Some of them are kind of redundant, but there’s only one person I know that knows pricing like you. 

[00:02:13] Casey Brown: Well, thanks. 

[00:02:14] Charles Eide: So how did you get so into it, into pricing of all things? 

[00:02:18] Casey’s Journey into Pricing

[00:02:18] Casey Brown: It will not surprise you to know this was not my, my plan as a kid. It wasn’t like on the career, you know, vision board. It, you know, you get career day at school, you’ve got the, the doctor, the nurse, the lawyer, the painter, the teacher.

There was no pricing consultant. I didn’t even know this was a field. Hmm. Right. So I didn’t, I didn’t set out to get into it, but once I stumbled into it, I was a, an early Six Sigma black belt at GE under Jack Welch, uh, and uh, did a rotation in pricing and absolutely fell in love. To me, it’s an intersection of art and science people and process data and psychology.

When done well, it makes companies. Millions of dollars. Uh, and yet I see so many companies struggling with it. So this, this tension between you have value that you deserve to be paid for, but you’re afraid or unable to be paid for. It really like fascinated me and captivated my interest. And so started down the, the journey of learning more about it.

That was 25 years ago and I haven’t gotten bored yet. 

[00:03:13] Charles Eide: Hmm. That’s amazing. Okay, before we move on, I have to hear about Six Sigma Black belt. What is. What is that? 

[00:03:21] Casey Brown: So Six Sigma is a, um, a methodology for improving your business through more rigorous and data-driven, uh, decision making. And it started in, uh, manufacturing environments.

So, um, lean manufacturing, other kinds of like data-driven, like how to make your business better. But then it spilled out into all areas of the business. And so I was an engineer by training and that’s how I got my first exposure to it. But I was stuck in a lab, uh, not talking to anyone. And anybody who knows me knows I’m an extrovert.

I need to be around people. So I, uh, was really interested in sales and marketing and, um. You know, they were, the, the folks on the sales team were going to Las Vegas for national sales meetings. And 23-year-old me thought that was the coolest thing. I’m stuck in a lab, they’re going to Vegas. Like I gotta get into sales.

And so I, and made moves in that direction. And the best way to do that, the best way to get out of the lab at GE was to go into this program, which was rotational. And so I did some rotations in technical fields like I was from, but then moved into a rotation in sales, a rotation in marketing, and then I did a rotation in pricing and I was like, oh, mama’s home.

[00:04:22] Charles Eide: Hmm. 

[00:04:22] Casey Brown: I got it. So 

[00:04:23] Charles Eide: you felt right at home when you saw that pricing? Yeah, 

[00:04:25] Casey Brown: because it’s got the commercial elements, uh, that are important in the sales and marketing space, but it’s still rooted in data is still rooted in a logical, measurable exchange of value. Hmm. And, uh, so that kind of scratched both itches, that desire to like play in that field of the commercial world.

What’s the customer care about? What do they value, what’s important to them? But also the kind of analytical and logical side of my pers engineering personality. You know, both those things came to bear. 

[00:04:53] Charles Eide: Okay, so when you think about, you know, the, I mean, people that listen to this are in all kinds of different businesses, and I think the question we all ask ourselves is, how do I price my product?

How do products get priced? And is this really important? I mean, shouldn’t I just take what I’m doing and either mark it up a percentage or look at what somebody else is charging? I mean, how, why is this important? 

[00:05:18] Why Pricing Matters: The Biggest Financial Lever

[00:05:18] Casey Brown: Oh, there’s so much there. That was a rich question. Uh, I’ll take a, we’ll take it a piece at a time.

So why is it important? Because that’s the biggest financial ever you have. There’s no greater impact on profitability for any company in the world than pricing. In other words, X percent increase in price has a bigger impact on profitability than X percent increase in sales volume or x percent reduction in expenses.

But in my experience, companies are very, very, very, very focused on sales volume and growth, and very focused on operational efficiency and procuring better and reducing waste and errors. And far less focused on pricing. Hmm. It’s got the biggest impact and gets the least focused. I just did a keynote two days ago and asked the audience, uh, you know, raise your hands if you’re having sales meetings in your company.

All the hands go up. Raise your hands. If you’re having operational meetings in your company where you’re discussing cost and efficiency and waste hands go up, raise your hands. If you’re having regular strategic pricing reviews, one hand went up in the back out of a couple hundred people. So this is the biggest financial lever you have in your business, and you are not talking about it under the, out of adage of what gets measured gets done.

The very fact of shining a light on this will change behavior, which will change your result. You know, throw yourself a bone and have a strategic pricing meeting once a quarter just to pick your head up out of doing the business and working hard, serving and selling and delivering, and look around and say, are we being paid as well as we deserve to for the value that we create.

[00:06:36] Charles Eide: So, how. Why do you think pricing isn’t getting, like, I know sales volume and operations are all getting attention, so is cost cutting doesn’t cutting? 

[00:06:47] Casey Brown: Yeah. 

[00:06:47] Charles Eide: Why aren’t people talking about pricing? 

[00:06:49] Casey Brown: I think there’s a couple things. One is, uh, fear, to be perfectly blunt, people are a lot more confident in, um, in the operational side of their business.

So if you are a, um, digital marketing agency, you were an excellent digital marketer before you started the company. If you are a manufacturer of bolts and fasteners, you’re a mag. You know, it’s the, the operational side that people have the most confidence in. And then the selling and the marketing of that is like, well, you can’t be in business for any length of time at all if you can’t really get going on the selling of it.

So the sell, do, sell, do, sell, do hamster wheel. Uh, gets all the attention and focus. So we are distracted by producing a world class solution and making sure customers want it, and we don’t slow down and ask enough questions to get paid for it. So there’s distraction or, or focus on other areas. And then the other one I mentioned is fear.

So if you line up a hundred people who sell stuff and you say, what do you love about selling and serving your customers? I bet you my house zero women say, I can’t wait till I get to tell ’em the price tag. It is so like, there’s nobody like, you don’t like it. I don’t like it. Nobody likes it. Nobody likes that.

’cause isn’t the fun part. The fun part is connecting, uh, solving problems. Being the hero closing business, like making stuff happen for your customers. That’s what we love. That’s what’s exciting and fun and fulfilling. The pricing part is relatively speaking, often an area of less confidence and less competence, and we’re just uncomfortable about it.

And a lot of people who are in a sales role, whether it’s a CEO down to a frontline seller. They kind of wanna get that part over with so they can get back to the fun stuff. 

[00:08:19] Charles Eide: So how do I, how do I price a product or service? You know, I mean, I’m, I’m in the event production industry, the event business, but there’s a lot of people in a lot of different industries.

Manufacturing, food, I mean, you name it. How do I start out and, and look at my ecosystem and go, am I pricing this right? 

[00:08:37] How to Price Your Product or Service

[00:08:37] Casey Brown: Sure. And, and this answer that I’m about to give applies both in the product space and the service space because it’s really all the same. And it kind of goes back to the first question you act asked, which is what’s pricing pricing’s just a measure of value.

So we have to understand how, what we do, what we produce, what we provide, how that solves a problem for someone and the value that they place on it. And so what does solving this problem mean to them? How important is that to them? And how uniquely positioned am I to solving it? If I have something that’s like everybody else, then I’m gonna have relatively limited pricing power because the market’s gonna have a lot more say over what I can charge if I’m like everyone else.

But using your industry as an example, I mean. Uh, you know, event production for a specific event, somebody might say, oh, that’s 10,000. Someone else might say 200,000. And maybe it’s even a wider range than that because it’s a really differentiated space where people have really different value propositions.

But even in a, like a manufacturing space, which might be really competitive and commoditized, like, you know, bulk chemicals or tonnage steel or something where you say a ton of steel is like any other ton of steel, yes, but how’s your inventory position? How’s your response time? How’s your lead time? How easy are you to buy from?

How much extra service do you get? So no one’s like anyone else. Not exactly. And so the degree to which we can understand that and how the customers value those differences, that’s where our pricing power lies. 

[00:09:56] Charles Eide: Yeah. It’s funny you say that. ’cause I, I’m just like going through my head like things I buy and I’m thinking about Amazon and I, and I think oftentimes Amazon’s prices may be slightly higher for things, but yet.

The convenience and the ease and the shipping and the quickness. I’m like, well, it might be a little bit more money, but these other things matter to me like I’m gonna have it this afternoon. 

[00:10:20] Casey Brown: Right, absolutely. And so, and, and what’s important to understand is you’re, as you’re think thinking about your pricing approach or strategy, is not all of your customers care about everything the same way.

So in other words, um, you might want that item you’re buying on Amazon for an event, you’re going to tomorrow, and then that speed matters a lot. But if somebody’s buying Christmas presents early, that speed doesn’t matter very much to them ’cause it’s a couple months away. So really kind of picking apart our market a little bit and understanding our customer base a little bit better and understanding that, you know, customer A, values speed, customer B values something else.

They, you know, our, our easy return policy or our, our, our warranties or whatever it is, you know, really just, uh, the, the key to all of this and the theme that sort of connects all this together is it’s not about us and our value. Value in, in, in without context of what the customer perceives and cares about is meaningless.

You can have the best, you know, gluten-free raisin bread, but like, you have to understand what the customer wants and values. And if you don’t, then you’re gonna struggle to be paid for it. 

[00:11:20] Handling Price Comparisons and Objections

[00:11:20] Charles Eide: So what if I sell a product that, um, is available on the market, but maybe it’s a specialty product and I inventory it here in my town and somebody shows up and they need it right now, but they, they show up and they’re like, well, you’re more expensive than this online and this, they’re cheaper.

Can you match the price? What do you do? 

[00:11:41] Casey Brown: Well, we’ve had exactly that situation arise with some clients that had a price match policy when they were compared against an online price, even though they had the part in stock. And I, uh, I, and, and their answer was, it’s the exact same part. I said, oh no, it’s not.

That part’s sitting two days away in Idaho. It’s gonna show up on Tuesday. This customer’s standing in your facility right now ready to walk out and go use that. Go put that into play, get, use that for their business or use that for their family. They’re gonna walk out and not buy this part over a $4 price difference.

Like, I don’t, I don’t buy it. Not only that, it’s not just the fact that one’s available today and one’s gonna show up on Tuesday. There’s all kinds of other differences between them, right? Like, so maybe they ship the wrong part. You gotta get an RMA and ship it back or ship the right part, but the box is damaged.

And the p the pc, you know, or they don’t allow returns and you do, or they have a restocking fee and you don’t, or they don’t have a warranty and you do, or this one is a part that drops out of the internet with zero support and you’ve got a, a, a, a wealth of support for people that buy that product or service that you’ve given them.

Purchasing guidance, you give them installation guides is like the idea that the part is the same is an illusion. 

[00:12:50] Charles Eide: Hmm. 

[00:12:50] Casey Brown: And it’s an illusion cultivated by your customers. ’cause they very much wanna pay you less. But the reality is those parts ceased to be the same. When one is delivered by you with all your value, then wherever else they can get it.

And when, when I did this work with a team that, you know, kind of helped uncover this stuff, I said, okay, we’re gonna brainstorm right now. What are all the things that are unique and special and different about buying from us versus buying online? Went through this list. We may ended up like 30 things on the list.

[00:13:16] Charles Eide: Mm. 

[00:13:17] Casey Brown: So, so the, the physical part that they sell was manufactured the same day as the one sitting in Idaho. The physical part is the same skew and the same packaging, but it’s not the same for those 30 reasons. And those are the reasons we deserve our price premium. 

[00:13:30] Charles Eide: So do, do smart companies look at those differentiators and engineer their value differently than the people who are just price matching the online price and trying to stay above water.

[00:13:45] Casey Brown: Yes. But I think that the, the bigger, the bigger opportunity is generally, like if I look at the, the kind of people I talk to about this stuff, they already have that stuff. The, the, the type of folks that are interested in this conversation about, Hey, are my prices high enough? Tend to be best in class or better in class companies.

Mm. They have something really exceptional, really special, really world class. They’re constantly getting compared against inferior competition who can’t do what they can do the way they can do it. And they’re, and that creates for them in their mind, a self-limiting ceiling. Like, we’re already a premium player, we’re already mm-hmm 12% higher than anybody else in the marketplace.

I can’t possibly charge more. And, and that, and that stops them. That makes them, you know, freeze up and, and be afraid. But the reality is that it isn’t about engineering a solution to generate a certain amount of value. It’s that you already have something very valuable and you are afraid or ill-equipped to ask for it from the customer.

And you’re falling prey to the illusion that the customer is presenting to you, which is, I’m gonna buy it here if you don’t match this price. It’s like that isn’t a part, that is a photograph of a part that is 500 miles from here. Yeah. Right. Like, let’s get real about it. Who knows if it’s even there in stock.

Yes. Right. So the, it, it’s less about engineering your value and more about understanding your customers in a really deep way. 

[00:15:01] Charles Eide: Mm. 

[00:15:01] Casey Brown: So that you can match what you’re great at to their value. And also, this is, this must be said, it’s important to recognize some of the things that are, you are very good at.

Some customers don’t value. 

[00:15:12] Charles Eide: Mm. 

[00:15:12] The Illusion of Commodity Products

[00:15:12] Casey Brown: It’s not important to them. And, and one of two things happens there. It’s like maybe that puts price pressure on your product or service and you decide to go ahead and underprice it because they don’t value some of the extras in the upgrades and the, and the, and the high value offering elements.

But it also might mean that they’re not the right customer for you. And we gotta let them go because they’re sucking up organizational capacity and, and causing you headaches and they don’t value you. 

[00:15:35] Charles Eide: It’s so relevant. Sometimes we get these RFPs, especially being in events and you know, you know that there’s some incumbent group that you know has been doing it for years and the client reaches out.

’cause they have to get a few bids from different companies. And you do your best to put your best foot forward. And they’re just comparing equipment lists to equipment lists. And if everything is the same, then it’s all the same. Yeah. So how does, how does a company, when they’re put out to r fp or they receive one and they want to stand out, how, you know, a lot of times you’re not given the opportunity to pitch, right?

So how do you. How do you show them that you’re of greater value? 

[00:16:19] Casey Brown: Well, I think, uh, this is a, a bit of a difficult answer because there’s RFPs aren’t all the same. In other words, there are RFPs where there is an ability to make a, to make a pitch or to include an attachment where you can speak to, you know, the unique elements of your value.

There. There’s, there’s RFPs where there’s a little more wiggle room to present value. There’s other RFPs where really it’s like, upload this here, fill in this number on this form and hit submit. And no, you cannot talk to anyone and no, you cannot call us and no, we will not answer questions. And, and I would say, so there’s a, if we kind of consider that RFPs happen on a spectrum, the degree to which they’re down at this end, where they’re really trying to separate you from your value.

They’re all designed to separate you from your value. That’s the purpose of a process like that. But there are some that they, they, they do it to such an insane degree that they cannot understand the difference between the suppliers. I actually think that harms the buyers as much as the sellers because they don’t know what they’re buying.

Mm. They’re seeing a part of the information they need to make a good decision. And frankly, the sometimes the least useful part, which is here’s this equipment list and a number. Mm-hmm. And they’re making a bad buy. But I would say if that’s, if, if your customers are committed to a procurement process 

[00:17:28] Charles Eide: mm-hmm.

[00:17:28] Casey Brown: Which is going to result in a bad decision, it’s in your best interest not to play. So if you can afford not to play in that end of the spectrum, don’t play. So generally speaking, the degree to which you can cultivate more of your sales through direct negotiations and then, then all the better. If you’ve got to play in that RFP arena, I would say try to stay in the end of the pool where you’ve got an ability to make, make some kind of impact with, with communicating value.

Especially, for example, if it’s a company you’ve done business with before and maybe you have a couple internal relationships. Now what they will tell you on paper is it’s out of Joe’s hands now, now it’s only with procurement and Joe’s, you know, out. Now we’ve pre-qualified six vendors and lowest price wins.

That’s at the end. Maybe, but maybe they’re not telling you the whole truth and maybe Joe who’s worked with you seven times before really has his thumb on the scale and can influence this decision. I’ve seen lots of bidding in RFP environments where they basically tell the vendors lowest price wins and when the vendor that they know they want, because they’re the ones they rely on for quality and service and excellence and they, they trust them the most does not win.

They still pluck ’em outta the middle and give ’em the business anyway. 

[00:18:36] Charles Eide: Okay, so there’s two things you said that were really big in there and it’s like, I’m like racking my brain to understand. The first one is if someone’s putting out an RFP and they want to, they want to hire a service out, how do they do that and still understand the value of vendor one versus vendor two?

Versus vendor three? Mm-hmm. How, how do they, how if it’s not just send in your information, we’ll review it. How do they best vet it? 

[00:19:09] RFPs and Procurement Tactics

[00:19:09] Casey Brown: Well, I’m not a procurement expert. I’m a pricing expert. But I will tell you, it’s, it’s really at that end of, uh, uh, that, that spectrum we talked about, which is there has to be a channel for which value can be communicated.

And I, and I’ll use as an example for this, so, uh, reverse auctions, have you heard of that? Do you know what that is? So reverse auction is essentially where you invite people to submit pricing for some business that you’re gonna award, but you don’t. It’s not like everybody sends in the number and that’s it.

It’s an actual live event where you would submit a number and you say, I’m willing to do it as low as 300,000. And someone else says, I’ll do it for two 50. And then you’ll say, no, no, no. Who? It’s a bidding. It’s just like a, an auction where people raise, that’s horrible. It is horrible. It is horrible. And the last person standing at the lowest price wins and they are, uh.

They are counting on the, the fear and the frenzy and the fight or flight that kicks in when you’re like, you’re watching it live, it’s happening live on your screen. These first came out when I was still at ge and I had a buddy in in procurement that said, Hey, what are you doing at two o’clock today?

You ought to come over and watch this, this reverse auction. I said, what’s a reverse auction? He tells me what it is, and I said, oh my gosh, that sounds horrible. He says, it’s amazing. We’re gonna pop some popcorn, watch some company, tear them just apart. And I was like, the hair stood up on my arm. I was like, that is John.

You’ve gotta get outta this job. It’s gonna kill your soul, man. This is not good. But, but, and then you look at, you fast forward, I think it was in 2005, target, uh, band reverse auctions because what they, because they had engaged in that, and what they found is exactly what we’re describing here, which is they, they did not get a full window into value.

It was, it was a feeding frenzy of panic. And the ones that win it are the bottom feeders. The companies that cut the most corners that don’t care as much about quality because they can drive the lowest cost, not the highest value, the lowest cost. And those are the ones that win those. And so if we kind of consider procurement tactics on a spectrum, those very aggressive, very mercenary, very value disconnected tactics, hurt buyers and sellers, and the best companies in the world should try as hard as they can to build a book of business on the other end of the spectrum.

Or diversify away from the kind of relationships because they are, they they will, they will, they will tear a company apart. 

[00:21:18] Charles Eide: That’s so interesting. So something you, something else you said, you kind of just flew over it and I was like, whoa, that’s really valuable. Was. You said they’re trying to separate you from your value.

[00:21:28] Casey Brown: Sure. 

[00:21:28] Charles Eide: Help me understand that and how do I prevent that from happening? 

[00:21:32] Casey Brown: Sure. And I, I’d, I’d like to broaden this at this point from just like these big RFPs or something. ’cause some people might listening might be, you know, a much smaller company and dealing with customers directly and that doesn’t apply to them.

So I don’t want anybody to think this issue of getting separated from your value is only applicable in RFPs. ’cause it’s not. If we sort of zoom out and say what is happening between a buyer and seller? Well, a buyer wants the products and services the best that they can get at the lowest price they can pay.

And you think when you’re a consumer, this is exactly what you want. When you buy something, you want the best thing you can get at the lowest price. What’s the buyer? What’s the seller want? The seller wants to make as many sales as they can at the highest prices they can. So these are two people. Each of them has something the other side wants, but they want them in different ways.

And so it creates this natural tension of sales. So this means customers will always over-report their price sensitivity. They will always pretend they don’t care about your value as much. Cust sellers will always hide, and this is where I think pricing is more like a game of poker, right? Like, it’s like a, a bluffing game.

Buyers are trying to hide how much they’re willing to pay. Seller are trying to hide how they’re willing to accept, and who’s the better bluffer. Too often it’s the buyer. ’cause we buy into the illusion that they have all the, all the, all the cards that they’re sitting on a full house and we’ve got twos and threes.

Well, we don’t have twos and threes. We have pocket ACEs. Believe in the products and services you sell. Do you solve a real problem for your customers? Do you, do you wrap excellence around it? They’re gonna buy the stuff from someone. Why not from you? And so this idea that like the buyer has all the cards and no, you have really strong hand to play, but consider that it is a game and there is there, there are hands being played here.

And if you abdicate the responsibility to be paid well for your excellence, then the customer’s gonna keep your money in their pocket. So their job is to save. Doesn’t make ’em a jerk or a crook or a bad guy. It’s their job. Your job is to get paid for excellence that creates tension. Tension can be challenging, but it’s not a good reason not to be paid Well.

[00:23:26] Charles Eide: So do you have to, I mean, it sounds like you just gotta get comfortable with that tension. 

[00:23:29] Casey Brown: That’s right. 

[00:23:30] Getting Comfortable with Pricing Tension

[00:23:30] Charles Eide: And accept it. 

[00:23:31] Casey Brown: Well, so, so you, or you could get ev give everything away, but I think that’s a very much worse option. Right? Yeah. And it, and then it robs the organization of resources. Mm. Right. If you’re underpricing, then that next person you wanna hire, or that next, um, you know, investment, you wanna make an inventory or upgrading your technology or, or paying yourself and your people better, all those things are robbed when we accept mediocre pay for excellent work.

So you have two choices. Get paid less than you’re worth or get comfortable with attention. 

[00:24:00] Charles Eide: Hmm. 

Yeah. So if you’re gonna get paid what you’re worth, there’s going to be tension and you’re gonna feel it, and you just have to get comfortable with it. Sure. Or get good at accepting that. 

[00:24:10] Casey Brown: Sure. And, and that discomfort rolls into fear.

And that’s what causes people to fall back and discount too quickly or present too they’ll of a number on a proposal. ’cause they’re, in addition to the discomfort and that tension, there’s also the fear of losing the business. Mm. You combine those two things together, and that’s why every single business I have ever met is underpricing, at least in some areas of the business.

[00:24:31] Charles Eide: So why are, why are buyers always, they have like this, like I’m the buyer. Like they have like, they’re fearless, but the sellers are full of fear, right? Like, it’s like, oh, we don’t wanna lose that opportunity. Why? Like, why is the buyer so AP appear to be so fearless? 

[00:24:50] Casey Brown: Well, I think there, this is a, to me it’s an illusion, but it’s the illusion that the buyer has the power that they are the ones writing checks, cutting pos, making it rain.

And the seller just has to take what they’re given because there’s other people out there that will do this work as well. They will produce the products or they’ll produce the services. But the reality is, and you know this as a business owner who’s bought lots of things in your life, are you willing to save a buck to get a bad result?

[00:25:15] Charles Eide: No, 

[00:25:15] Casey Brown: of course you’re not, 

[00:25:16] Charles Eide: especially not in my business 

[00:25:18] Casey Brown: and especially not anybody what business owner’s like, yeah, you know what, I’m good. I’m good with a bad result because I’d saved a little like, no, they want Now what is a good result? Or a good enough result might be different for you versus the next person, but you are never okay saving money to get a bad result.

And so I would say that the, the, the best combatant to this illusion that they have all the power is to realize that nobody else can solve this problem for that business or that consumer the way I can. Hmm. And that can instill confidence to know the customer might bluff, the customer might, you know, blow hard about their, you know, I’ll just go buy it from the next guy.

They’re not gonna do that when the next guy, I can’t do what you can do. You know, a classic example of this is a a price match request. Oh, you know what Charles? I’d really go love to go with Icon, but I’ve got several other quotes that are sitting on my desk that are significantly lower than yours. You don’t have to be the lowest, but you gotta get in the ballpark.

If you could, if you could do this for 5% less, well Matt, you know these got these other guy, you hear this stuff, right? People hear this in business all the time. All the time. All the time. Why is that person saying that to you? 

[00:26:22] Charles Eide: They’re trying to manipulate me down. 

[00:26:24] Casey Brown: Right. But if they had a lower price from a competitor that they were excited about, would I be doing this to you?

[00:26:34] Charles Eide: They think my value’s higher. 

[00:26:35] Casey Brown: That’s right. If they were cheaper and better, you wouldn’t be on my office. We wouldn’t be on Zoom, we wouldn’t be talking, we wouldn’t be emailing. These guys would have my PO and this would be done. 

[00:26:45] Charles Eide: Mm. 

[00:26:45] Casey Brown: This is happening. So I am beating you up on price because I’m telling you I wanna buy from you.

I don’t want them. They’re cheaper. You’re better. I don’t want them, I want you. But this tactic makes people very afraid because they think, oh my gosh, if I don’t match the price or if I don’t concede or meet in the middle or do something else, then I’m gonna lose the business. A price objection is a buying signal.

[00:27:08] Charles Eide: That’s good. 

[00:27:10] Price Objections as Buying Signals

[00:27:10] Casey Brown: There’s essentially saying in not so many words, so-and-so’s cheaper, but I don’t wanna buy from them. They’re inferior to you in a way. I choose not to disclose. And I hope very much you don’t figure out during the course of this conversation, and I’m gonna try to trick you into giving away your superior service and value for this low price.

How’s the ruse working so far? Am I smarter than you? Are you gonna let me get away with this? They’re cheaper. You’re better. I don’t want them. I want you. A price match. Request is an objective statement of preference for your company. 

[00:27:34] Charles Eide: It’s, it seems deceptive. 

[00:27:37] Casey Brown: It’s paradoxical that somebody beating you up on price is a good news story for you.

But it’s, and and to say deceptive, I would say, and. Customers. Now there’s, there’s a wide range of ethics around this. There are customers that will outright lie. Absolutely. 

[00:27:55] Charles Eide: So buyers are liars, you know? 

[00:27:57] Casey Brown: No, I say that. Buyers are liars. Customers will present fabricated quotes and invoices when I mean, there, there are no way.

Oh, absolutely. They’ll fake 

[00:28:04] Charles Eide: other people’s stuff. 

[00:28:05] Casey Brown: Absolutely. Especially like anybody listening who sells to the automotive industry, even aerospace and some of the more aggressive, really large, uh, companies that are trained and, you know, their procurement folks go to school for five weeks a year to beat the crap outta you.

And if you’re not investing in this, you’re bringing a knife to a gunfight. So at the, at the least ethical, least honest end of the spectrum that’s going on now, my hope is that most of the people listening to this, that’s not the kind of customers they have sitting across their table. It’s the other end of the spectrum where people are a lot more ethical and honest.

But even at that other end of the spectrum, you’re not getting the truth. And, and by that I mean you’re not getting the whole truth. You may be getting a curated set of information. You’re not telling everything. Like if you’re gonna go buy a car this weekend and you know exactly where you’re gonna buy it, and you know exactly where you’re gonna buy it from because you know you’ve been looking at this for a while and you know what color you want, what trim package you want, you know, and this, this is the, this is the dealership that has it.

You don’t walk in there and say, I am buying a car. Name your price. Right? Like you ask you, you might say, I’m looking at a couple of other, a couple of other dealerships, like we, it is human nature to try to save money. The customer’s job is to save money. If we take that as a fact, it doesn’t make them manipulative.

It doesn’t make ’em a jerk. It makes it, they’re doing their job. What’s my job in this? What do I do? 

[00:29:18] Charles Eide: Stand firm 

[00:29:20] Casey Brown: believe in your value and recognize that they’re beating you up on price because they wanna save money. But that doesn’t mean there’s a volume threat. They’re projecting a volume threat where none exists because they want the stuff for less, ’cause they’ve got mouths to feed, or you know, employees to pay or a boat to buy.

[00:29:34] Charles Eide: This is so fascinating that the buyer is so naturally. Deceptive. 

[00:29:45] Casey Brown: Well, I would argue both sides aren’t telling the whole story. So when you make a proposal for something and the, you might be the wrong guy to ask, because I know you have really good pricing hygiene at this business, and you believe a lot in your value and you deserve to, well, a lot of business owners, if I said, if you’ve written a proposal for something, is that number on that piece of paper the very lowest price you’re willing to accept?

And the answer’s often no. That, you know, they, this is what they want, this is what they think they deserve. But depending on the negotiation, that they’d be willing to go as low as x as that deceptive on behalf of the, of the seller. 

[00:30:17] Charles Eide: Hmm. 

[00:30:19] Casey Brown: Everybody’s doing their best. Everybody has a job to do. I think it’s helpful to take some of the, the sort of the emotion out of this, and I say it, it’s impossible to take emotion out of it, but to at least name it as emotion and pull that apart from the facts of the case, so to speak.

[00:30:35] Charles Eide: Okay. So. When you think about the, um, different types of products out there, there are some products that the price is so sensitive, everybody knows the price of that thing is that, and then there’s other products where it’s like, it’s all across the board. Sure. How, how do I know if my product isn’t one of those commodity products?

How do I know how to price my product? 

[00:31:02] Understanding Customer Psychology

[00:31:02] Casey Brown: Yeah, I if you are, I mean, so like a, a classic example of this is like maybe web development, right? You can design a website for free and chat to pt or you can spend a half a million dollars on a website and everything in between, right? And so what’s, what’s the, what’s the right price for a website?

What’s the market price? There’s no such thing. Same in very many businesses, particularly in service based businesses, but even a lot of product based businesses too. And so I would say if you take a look at the best in the market and the worst in the market, and you take a look at the price difference between those, if those numbers are pretty close together, then you don’t have a lot of room to play.

You wanna be as high as you can in that little window based on the value you deliver, but you aren’t gonna, you know, back to the gluten-free raisin bread, you can’t charge $150 a low for it just ’cause it’s the best gluten-free RAI bread. Right? There’s still a competitive range. There’s still something that is possible and realistic based on how your customers value you.

But in the, in the other end of the spectrum where we’re really have really differentiated products and services, where the price difference between the best and the worst is a big range. And then you say, how do I figure out where I belong in there? I have a somewhat unsatisfying answer, which is, um, nobody knows meaning you, the seller doesn’t know, the customers, don’t know your competitors, don’t know.

Nobody knows what something is worth until we try to start transacting business with it. We put it out there, we talk to the customers about the value, and we either win or we don’t win. We close sales or we don’t close sales. If you go make, if you go pitch something 10 times at a price and you close zero of them, well, lemme start with the other example.

First, you go pitch something 10 times and you close 10 out of 10, your prices are too low. Raise your prices, you close, zero out of 10. Well, maybe your price is too high, maybe the customer doesn’t value what you do. Or maybe you’ve done a bad job of helping them understand your value. But, but until we get into the game, this isn’t something that can be figured out on the sidelines.

We can make guesses at it, we can approximate it. We can understand that if this solution saves them 10% waste in their manufacturing process, or it saves them four hours a week of their marketing person’s time, we can, we can guesstimate benefit, but willingness to pay can only happen customer to, to, to seller.

And then we can map it out. Then we can, we triangulate and improve. So if you guys, sometimes I hear this like we have a brand new thing, we’ve never sold it before. It doesn’t exist on the planet. It’s totally innovative. We have no idea how to price it. Get out there and get data. The world is your pet dish.

[00:33:22] Charles Eide: Hmm. Okay. So our business, we have a ton of different products and services. Right. A ton. And how do I know, like, how do I know which products to charge what for? Like, for example, some products I have seem to be really profitable and other products is like not super profitable. Mm-hmm. How do I, how do I figure that out and do, should I plan to try and make more on the less price sensitive things than the more price sensitive things?

How do I figure that out? 

[00:33:58] Pricing Different Products in Your Portfolio

[00:33:58] Casey Brown: So I do in my keynotes. So we play a, a pricing game. Price is right and guests have people guess at the very, the actual retail price of various household items, just like on price is right. And the products that everybody knows the, the price on are a gallon of gasoline. Hmm.

Everybody knows the price, a gallon of gas within a nickel. But products like tennis balls or hot sauce, people are guessing 2, 3, 4, 5 times as much. Now why that matters is most businesses have hot sauce and ga gasoline in their portfolio of products and services, but we tend to think of everything like our gasoline.

We think if we raise our prices, if we hold the line on discounts, customers will leave us. But it’s far more true on the gasoline than it is the hot sauce. And so what that causes us to do is suppress the pricing of everything, because if we can only make. I dunno, 15% gross margin on the gasoline. Well, we might think that’s all we can make on the hot sauce, or we might say, well, no, our, our hot sauce is 25% gross margin.

That’s make, we’re making a lot more money there. Well, 25 percent’s great unless it could be 35 or 40. In other words, it’s generally the most price sensitive stuff we sell, which often, not always often is the high volume stuff that is not very differentiated, that lots of other businesses can also do because it’s less complex or it’s less difficult to execute.

That is the most price sensitive stuff we sell, and we should seek to be as profitable as we can there. Absolutely. But the pricing opportunity there tends to be pretty low because. If that’s all they’re buying from you and they can get it a hundred other places for the same price, you can’t earn as much of a price premium there.

But it’s those specialty products that specialty services, the differentiated stuff, the kind of like the hot sauce. If, if it’s a dollar 50 or four 50, you put it in the cart and you push to the front of the store and you check out and you never think about it again because it’s not a financially significant product in your life.

And so if I’m buying something from you and the center point of this project, 80%, 90% of the revenue is these things. We’ve gotta be really right on that stuff. But the products and services around the fringes that people aren’t paying as much attention to, we could probably get a more, a bit more aggressive there.

So sometimes it’s a function of, um, the competition and how to commit, commoditize this product or services. Sometimes it’s a function of, it’s a tiny amount of the spend compared to the total. And so it just gets lost around the edges. But again, this is a function of like, test this in the marketplace and see what happens.

And I don’t mean that, so like just give it a shot, like roll the dice. You can do this in an educated way, but. We guess all we can ever do is guess at how people value our stuff until we sell it. Hmm. And then we can start mapping out the pricing power. And so it’s like, okay, I’ve got my hot sauce products identified and instead of going out at 25 gross margin, I’m gonna try 27 and I still have the same win rate.

Alright, I’m gonna try 30. I still have the win rate. I say, so you can use testing and experimentation to gather data about where customers are price sensitive and where they’re less. So, 

[00:36:41] Charles Eide: so what do you say to people who are like, well, we shouldn’t charge that much for that product. It doesn’t cost us that much, and I don’t feel right charging that much of a markup.

You know, let’s say the markup’s like really high, you could mark it up a hundred x. Yeah. And it’s still like, what do you say to people who are like, oh, I don’t feel right about charging that. Yeah. 

[00:37:02] The Cost-Plus Pricing Myth

[00:37:02] Casey Brown: That is, uh, that’s a, that happens. Very common one. Uh, so there’s, I have a couple answers to it. First of all, customers don’t know or care about your markup or your margin.

They do not, they do not care about it. Zero times in history. Have you had a customer call you up and say, Charles, I got the proposal. I like the look of it, but it’s a bit pricey. What do you have more in the 22% margin range, right? This is not a thing that happens. Not ever, not one time, ever. Right? But we internally, inside teams, inside sales teams are looking at margins and profitability and markups.

And we think that is the same as what customers are willing to pay, but it’s nothing more than a proxy for price. And so a hundred x markup on a 9 cent part when they’re giving you a million dollars for this thing over here is irrelevant. It’s still hot sauce. So first of all, it’s just sort of a, I wanna poke a hole in that question through a place of logic, which is they don’t care about it.

And you are, um, when you let that stop you from charging enough, then you’re, then, then you’re doing that based in like internal, you’re just being stupid. It’s, yeah, it’s in, it’s your, it’s in your story. The second thing I would say is this issue about like, almost like it’s wrong. To make more money or it’s greedy or it’s taking advantage of someone.

There’s like hand wringing about this. Like, I hear like a, in that question I hear like a morality judgment. Like what kind of person would rip off a customer at a 90% gross margin or a, or a hundred x markup? And I would say that like it, there, there is a fear in the seller’s heart that they’re gonna, if they do something like that, they’re gonna get caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

Like the customer’s gonna figure out that they were trying to trick them or get away with something. And I would say that two things to that. One is best in class, better in class companies are so afraid of being on the wrong side of that morality line, that there are a million miles in the other direction.

Mm-hmm. And if you took one or two baby steps towards it, you are still being very reasonable, appropriate, moral and responsible to your customers. There’s nothing greedy or gouging or taking advantage of about getting paid fairly for your excellence. And the second that you are asking to be paid something more than you’re worth, customers won’t buy it.

So if they’re willing to pay it, that’s a signal to you that they value it and stop looking at your cost or your markup or your margins. ’cause that’s not relevant. 

[00:39:13] Charles Eide: Yeah. One time you told me a story about like office furniture and cubicles and clips in something. Yeah. Can you refresh me on that? 

[00:39:20] Casey Brown: Sure, sure.

So, because I thought 

[00:39:21] Charles Eide: it was a really good example. 

[00:39:23] Casey Brown: Yeah. The, uh, an office furniture client that I had done this work with, this sort of hot sauce and gasoline, um, analogy, uh, was, uh, they sold this $3,000 cubicle system and alongside this cubicle system, they had to sell a 97 cent bracket. And, uh, and I say, guys, you gotta get your heads around this hot sauce thing.

Like, why is that 97 cents? Why wouldn’t you charge a dollar 50 or 2 97 or 3 45 or something? And one of the guys in the room said, but that’s 90% margin. I was like, it is a $3,000 cubicle system. Nobody, nobody, nobody, nobody, nobody. Cares about a bracket that costs under $5, much less under $1. It’s irrelevant.

There’s something called the, um, the zone of indifference, which is, uh, over what price difference do we really care or notice something? And I would say if you’re buying, you know, we’ll go back to, you know, buying a car this, this, uh, this weekend, and you’re looking at something that the, the model and make and trim package you want is $52,000.

Well, if it’s $52,001, it’s the same. Doesn’t matter. 52,100, same. Now at some point the price difference gets big enough to notice and care about it. And then we’re like, well, I want, but, but the zone of indifference back to the, the, the, the, the hardware for the cubicle system, the zone of indifference is many, hundreds of percent because it’s like, who cares?

The problem is we’re so close to our own business. Everything looks like gasoline does. We’re like staring it all in the face, and we don’t see the difference between a 97 cent bracket and a $3,000 cubicle system. But the customer doesn’t care about that stuff the same way. 

[00:40:54] Charles Eide: That’s so powerful because I think about all of the things in our business that, you know, they’re very price sensitive, but we have a plenty of things that are, are not, and like you said, if something’s 500,000 versus 505,000, I doesn’t really matter.

But five grand is five grand. 

[00:41:13] Casey Brown: That’s 1% depending on the bottom line of your business, that can be, that could be double digit impact to profitability. Huge. From just, and, and we tend to think of it like rounding error. Like, oh, it’s just a hundred dollars on a $10,000 order. It’s just $5,000 on a half a million dollar project.

Like it doesn’t sound very big. But when you trickle that down, the p and l to the bottom line, ’cause every single percentage point of price goes straight to the bottom. You’re talking oftentimes about 10 or 20% improvement to the bottom line. 

[00:41:38] Charles Eide: Geez. 

[00:41:39] Casey Brown: Do you like, uh, profit improvement of double digits, Charles?

I mean, 20% 

[00:41:43] Charles Eide: growth in profit. 

[00:41:45] Casey Brown: Yeah. And guess what, just, just so we’re perfectly clear about this, how many extra projects do you have to do to do that? 

[00:41:51] Charles Eide: Zero. 

[00:41:52] Casey Brown: How many extra Hi people do you have to hire? Zero. Zero. How many extra products do you have to procure? Zero. How many extra invoices do you have to issue?

Zero. How many extra customers do you have to chase down to pay the invoices? Zero. You can change zero about your product or service. 

[00:42:07] The Power of Small Price Increases

[00:42:07] Casey Brown: You don’t have to upgrade or improve it. It’s already great. 

[00:42:09] Charles Eide: You got my heart racing over here right now. ’cause I’m just thinking of the possibilities. 

[00:42:13] Casey Brown: So what if everyone listening to this adds 1% more?

[00:42:19] Charles Eide: Well, just 1%. 

[00:42:20] Casey Brown: 1% a a $1 part is a dollar one. A hundred dollars per hour service. $101. A thousand dollars is 1,010. It’s it’s a and and, and what’s fascinating to me, I do these keynotes and the, I have a polling software and I ask a bunch of polling questions at the beginning and the F first question I ask is, how much sales volume would you lose if you did a 5% price increase?

And then I say, and two and one, and the answer is, before I’ve taught them about this stuff before we’ve had any of this kind of conversation, is that they would lose almost no volume. It’s like you already have unexercised pricing power in your business. You already know that you have opportunity to do this.

This could have, uh, there is not a single person. And if you think you’re this person, send me an email and I will, I will, I’ll give you a thousand dollars. There’s not a single person listening to this. That 5% price increase doesn’t change the game for them on their profitability. We’re talking significant double digit impact to profitability.

20, 30, 50. It could be a hundred percent improvement to bottom line, depending on your starting point. And businesses have it and they’re not doing anything about it. They’re sitting on it. And that money instead of sitting in your account, is in your customer’s account. And then I always say, when I’m across from a business owner, what would you do with it?

Like if you had $1 million right now to spend to make your business better, could you think of anything? 

[00:43:41] Charles Eide: A thousand things. 

[00:43:43] Casey Brown: And that money’s there. You’re just not asking for it. 

[00:43:45] Charles Eide: Oh my gosh. Wait a minute. Hold on, hold, hold on a second. If that’s true, then discounting has gotta be the devil. 

[00:43:56] Casey Brown: It’s the worst and it’s 

[00:43:58] Charles Eide: gotta like multiply the problem.

[00:44:01] Casey Brown: Well, for sure, because a 5%, if, let’s imagine you are a, a 5% bottom line business. I mean, you know, we’ve got people listening with all different kinds of profitability. But true bottom line is 5%. A 5% discount wipes out a hundred percent of that. Oh, so you’re working hard for no money. A wait, 

[00:44:17] Charles Eide: wait. Slow down.

’cause we’re using numbers. A 

[00:44:20] Casey Brown: 5% 

[00:44:20] Charles Eide: discount 

[00:44:21] Casey Brown: wipes out a hundred percent of your net profit. 100% of you are working hard for no money. Charles, have you ever worked hard for no money before? 

[00:44:29] Charles Eide: It’s the worst. It’s 

[00:44:30] Casey Brown: the worst. It’s the worst. It’s a miserable, demoralizing, soul sucking experience. Every business owner in the world knows that pain, and we tell ourselves it’s just 5%.

And then we really screw ourselves over when we say we’re gonna make it up in volume. 

[00:44:43] Charles Eide: So some of these business owners that are struggling to grow year over year, and they’re like, I keep hitting this ceiling. I can’t break past a million dollars or $2 million. This is a big piece of that. 

[00:44:55] The Devastating Impact of Discounting

[00:44:55] Casey Brown: Well, what if you could do, and I’m, I’m not advocating less volume.

I’m I, I am pro-growth and pro profit, and you can do both at the same time. But what if you were slightly smaller but much more profitable? What if you did one fewer project but you made 20% more money? Because that’s the kind of like, a lot of times we’re just so afraid to lose the deal. We’re pricing not to lose.

We’re not pricing to win based confidently in value, and we’re just chasing deals, chasing deals, and we’re throwing low prices at them to win these deals. And then we do, and then we pull our hair out trying to deliver world class because we’re never gonna be satisfied with mediocre quality going out the door.

And so we’re on a hamster wheel making ourselves nuts and we’re not getting paid well for it. And if we slowed down and we said, you know, what, if I, I think I could, I believe based on my understanding of this customer’s, uh, priorities and what they really value and how we’re a perfect fit for that, that I think I could get two and a half percent more on this deal.

And you put that on there and that money appears in your, like nothing extra has to happen to earn it. And it’s not like sales volume where you incur cost to, to, you know, to execute on it. It’s free money. It’s sitting there and you’re just not asking for it. And so then it’s like, okay, what’s po What, what does that cost us?

The other, the other thing, and you know, the pain of this, sometimes the customers that are the most price sensitive are the worst customers. 

[00:46:15] Charles Eide: Terrible customers, right? They, I think they’re, they are the worst customers. They, they 

[00:46:19] Casey Brown: suck up disproportionate organizational resources. They abuse you and your staff.

They don’t pay you on time. They’re horrible to deal with. They don’t value you. You see their number come up on a Friday afternoon, you’re like, no, I, I can’t with this guy today. Right? Like, they’re terrible. So the customers, the, the, the first of all, fewer customers will leave than you think. If you hold the line on price, you think you’re gonna lose a bunch, you’re not, many of them will stay, but they’re gonna pay you for the privilege of staying.

The couple that go, you’re going to be more profitable, more successful. You’re gonna reserve organizational capacity of our customers that love you and care about what you’re good at. Yeah. Let them go. Become alumni of the organization. Let ’em go, 

[00:46:56] Charles Eide: let ’em, let ’em go. Beat someone else up. Yeah. Let ‘

[00:46:58] Casey Brown: em be the cust the competition’s problem.

Let them go drain their profits. I’m 

[00:47:02] Charles Eide: gonna hand this off to my competitors. Yes. 

[00:47:05] Casey Brown: Listen, this is a gift for you. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Take this customer off my hands. So 

[00:47:09] Charles Eide: does that mean that when you’ve got a bad customer like that, and let’s say you’ve been putting up with them for years mm-hmm. Do, do you think that those, those bad customers are training us to price our products wrong for our other customers?

[00:47:26] Casey Brown: There’s a yes. Yes. And we, they, they’re training us to accept their bad behavior, first of all. Yeah. And they’re, and then what that does for a sales organization is we start to think we know what the market price is, especially when those, um, are some big customers. They’re, you know, so often the, the squeaky wheel, the vocal minority, the, the big bullies, right?

That are always complaining and that starts to kind of creep into our consciousness. And then we believe that like, X is a good price for this kind of project, or y is a good, um, margin for this kind of work. But X and y, these are rules of thumb developed outta the most price sensitive customers that we have.

Hmm. So it causes us to underprice to everybody, and it robs us of all the resources we could have to make better, uh, to, to serve those customers better. 

[00:48:10] Charles Eide: So now you have a sales person going, everyone’s saying We’re too expensive and we just charge too much. And you’re like, well, where’d you get that? And they’re like, well, this one customer’s been saying that you’re.

Okay, so one squeaky wheel, right? 

[00:48:24] Casey Brown: The other 999 customers we have are delighted with our, but we, well, and there, there’s, this is where I think there’s a really interesting intersection between all the, the surface level stuff we’re talking about in terms of in the transaction or in the negotiation or in the moment.

We gotta kind of dig deeper than that and say, why does that happen? There’s some interesting brain science around this stuff. So that issue that we pay too much attention to, the squeaky wheel is rooted in something called negativity bias, which is where human beings recall negative events with greater frequency and attention than positive events.

So that’s why, like, if somebody, you know, teased you on the school yard, when you are a kid, you have to hear 20 compliments to, to kind of eradicate, you can win 20 deals, you lose one customer or sales team’s like, oh, our prices are too high, right? We, we overreact to negative stuff in our lives. It carries too much weight.

And so when you talk about customer feedback, especially some of those customers that you’re keeping around that should become alumni, they can really erode the confidence of the team and they can get in our heads and then,

[00:49:23] Why Buyers Have Pricing Power

[00:49:23] Casey Brown: yeah, they’re one out of a thousand, but they, they carry a disproportionate amount of weight in our opinion.

Mm. I’d also just like to say, and this is less about a specific bad customer, but the, if we can extrapolate this, this negativity bias thing a little bit, it’s like customer’s jobs. We talked before about their job is to save money. Our job is to get money, right? So they’re, they will always give us asymmetrical feedback about price.

What do I mean by that? I mean, they’re never gonna be like, wow, Charles, that’s a great deal. I thought you were gonna be $200,000 more. They’re not gonna say that. They might have thought it, they might have been prepared for it, but they’re not gonna say that. They’re only like, if we slice all the possible feedback we could get from our customers in half the, the side where we were too cheap and they thought our price was gonna be higher, we never get that.

We only ever get half the feedback. We get asymmetrical feedback and it’s all the negative stuff. 

[00:50:15] Charles Eide: Mm. 

[00:50:16] Casey Brown: Even by the way, even some of the time when they thought you were gonna be $200,000 more, they still say, well, is that your best number? Is that, that’s outside our budget. You know, that’s more than we paid our last vendor.

Right. They, well, even when they thought you were gonna be more, this still beat you up. Because guess what, if they can save $50,000 on this thing, then they can buy, you know, this other thing. They can hire this person, they can do whatever. Right. So we aren’t getting the whole story. We’re only getting the downside.

And if you pair that truth with a negativity bias we just talked about, no wonder we’re walking around afraid and we’re under pricing. And I would say fear is natural to feel, it’s just a terrible reason not to get paid. 

[00:50:50] Charles Eide: So, if so true, I mean, you know, it’s, it’s funny because if you don’t understand the, I guess you’d say the game of it and uh, and disconnect the emotion, it’s kind of depressing.

Yeah. 

[00:51:03] Casey Brown: You know? 

[00:51:04] Charles Eide: Yeah. ’cause it feels rigged. It’s like one end of the stick. 

[00:51:06] Casey Brown: It feels rigged against the seller. You know, really? And, and the reality is that, um, I think that the key to this is some, some of the key to this is just awareness. Just like this conversation we’re having, like, oh, I didn’t think about it this way.

I didn’t think about the fact that when customers beat me up on price, they’re actually giving me a buying signal. 

[00:51:25] Charles Eide: See, that really got me because when people complain about price, you think, oh man, we’re this, it feels like bad news. Yeah, this deal’s slipping away. We’re gonna lose it. Somebody else is gonna get it.

[00:51:36] Casey Brown: And we really want this customer. We’ve been trying to get our foot in the door forever, and I know we’ve got four other big events going. You’re saying the 

[00:51:41] Charles Eide: case? No. 

[00:51:42] Casey Brown: Why they, if they didn’t wanna buy for. When a customer gives you buying, uh, when a customer gives you price pushback, they’re giving you some indication.

They like, look, customers are completely for today, until AI changes the whole game, human beings still buy and sell. Right. Human being across the table, across the website, across the email, across the phone call is a human being making a buying decision. Human beings are notoriously self-interested. They have no interest in wasting their time.

So if they didn’t want to buy from you, why would they bother beating you up? They wouldn’t. They beat you up because they have at least some interest in buying from you. 

[00:52:16] Charles Eide: Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:16] Casey Brown: Which is an indicator of your power in the moment. We often feel powerless. We don’t see it. Of course we don’t. Why don’t we 

[00:52:24] Charles Eide: see it?

[00:52:24] Casey Brown: I don’t know. That’s why I go on podcast after podcast, after podcast and stage after stage after stage. I’m like, 

[00:52:29] Charles Eide: people, you have power. Why are we so scared? Why are we naturally so scared? Why is the salesperson so scared? Yeah. Yeah. Like the obvious like, oh, we could lose a deal. We could lose the deal, but why are we so scared?

What is the psychology behind that? 

[00:52:45] Negativity Bias and Asymmetrical Feedback

[00:52:45] Casey Brown: Well, I think it’s, it’s some of the things we’ve been talking about, but if you, so they, I think there’s different kinds of fear that that kind of unfolds sometimes. If I will, I will broadly say there’s the owner, CEO, founder. Sometimes they’re the worst at this, by the way.

Some, sometimes it’s really interesting at the founder level, sometimes you have somebody that is so passionately, deeply like a, a standard bearer for value that they’re never gonna discount. Mm. The boss is the best at selling it. Mm. Because they’re so, so committed. There are other times the c, the CEO, the founder, the ceo, um, the, the owner is what I call the CDO, the chief Discount Officer.

Ooh. And it’s because they’re, they’re actually the first one that wants to rush in and, and discount when a customer puts pressure on them. And I think there’s reasons for that. Uh, sometimes it’s like, well, a founder remembers the early days when it was like, I gotta write a check to my own business to make payroll.

I know that feeling for sure. You do. And I do too. And the fear and the pain and the worry and the agony. I feel like I’m, 

[00:53:37] Charles Eide: I feel like I’m kind of that guy and that’s why they keep me outta sales now, to be honest. Well, 

[00:53:42] Casey Brown: and we have, I I, I think a lot of, you know, a lot of founders have the sort of trauma from the early days when it was like any businesses, good business.

It 

[00:53:49] Charles Eide: is trauma. It is. That is trauma. It is trauma. I still wake up in cold sweats from it. 

[00:53:55] Casey Brown: It doesn’t take anything at all for me to recall some of those early days. Oh. You know, and I was a, a, a early entrepreneur, a single mom, two babies at home. I was thinking about how we’re gonna make our mortgage. I mean, I, I would, I took on, and every business owner I know has done this taken on work.

I had no business taken on that I knew wasn’t a good fit for me. Mm-hmm. But they’re willing to write me a check and I can make it work, and I can FI can figure it out. And we’ve, we’ve all done that. And so if you kind of cast that in the history and you say, okay, if that’s the backdrop, then. We as founders develop habits around this, where any business is good business and we can keep the team busy.

’cause we’ve got people to pay. We’ve got, you know, we’ve got responsibilities not just for our own family, but for our employees and their families. And so that causes us, I think, in some cases in the, to be that CDO. So if we sort of say that’s the, that’s the catana ownership level and the, and the leadership level, and you say, okay, now I’m a sales person, um, and my job is to sell.

And, uh, so I think you’d have to take a look at compensation. Are we compensating people well, so sometimes people are paid on vol, on volume, not on profit. 

[00:54:57] Charles Eide: Mm. 

[00:54:57] Casey Brown: And if you’re paying people on volume, then you’re essentially telling them, please go get large unprofitable deals, as many as you can. 

[00:55:03] Charles Eide: So you’re saying pay the salespeople on the profitability instead?

[00:55:07] Casey Brown: That’s right. That’s right. Yeah, if you pay them on volume, never be surprised when people do what you pay them to do. And if you’re paying them to get volume at any price, they will get volume at any price. 

[00:55:17] Charles Eide: Mm. 

[00:55:17] Casey Brown: But if you pay them to get volume at a price that is good, good for you and good for them, then they can make more money.

So incentive design is a piece of this, but there’s a lot more to it. It’s not as simple as have the right comp plan. So you’re 

[00:55:26] Charles Eide: saying don’t just pay on gross pay on the profitability? That’s 

[00:55:30] Casey Brown: right. 

[00:55:30] Charles Eide: Gross profit or net. 

[00:55:32] Casey Brown: It depends. I don’t, there there’s different cases for different ones of those I’m less concerned about.

I can, I even think you can pay on true revenue or, or, or gross volume. But if you do that, maybe there’s some tiers around it. So for example, if you sell. At over a certain margin, or if you sell at list price, you get a hundred percent of the commission plan. If you sell, you know, at 10% off, then you only get 50% of the commission dollars.

And if you sell deeper than 10%, then you don’t get any of the commission dollars. So you can put some kind of rules and guidelines around how the commission works, even if you wanna pay them on volume, not on on profit. But again, that’s only a piece of this. The other thing is it has to be crystal clear.

And I see so many businesses go wrong with this. I always say, you have to know when to walk away. You have got to know when the top price a customer is willing to pay you does not overlap with the bottom price. You should accept a Kenny Rogers moment. You gotta know when to walk away. You gotta know when to run.

And one of the problems I see, because what you gotta consider is we, we salespeople, they love to close. They love to win. It’s what drew them into sales in the first place. It’s what we hired them for. It’s what we pay them for. It’s what we train them to do. It’s what we celebrate them for. It’s a company picnic.

And when we say walk away from bad business, we’re saying don’t do that thing. Don’t do that thing you love. Don’t do that thing you’re good at. Don’t do that thing that puts food on your table. It’s really hard for salespeople to do that when you put it in that blunt of terms. So that’s where I think it’s incredibly important that it’s crystal clear from the top of the organization down every single thing person who sells what is good business and what isn’t.

[00:57:03] Charles Eide: Hmm, 

[00:57:03] Casey Brown: what is good pricing and what isn’t? What is a good customer and what isn’t? What’s a good deal and what isn’t? Because if that’s murky or gray at all, good people will close bad business and that will not be their fault. That will be 

[00:57:15] Charles Eide: yours, our fault, 

[00:57:15] Casey Brown: mine, ours. 

[00:57:17] Equipping Your Sales Team

[00:57:17] Charles Eide: So is it’s important that the salespeople really do understand profitability of, of the work they’re selling.

Yeah. Or the product. 

[00:57:24] Casey Brown: Yeah. And it doesn’t have to be like, here’s, let’s go to the six month long financial literacy course. But there needs to be some, some understanding of what a pro, what, what good business looks like and where the, where the bright white lines are around, uh, what to do. And in a lot of businesses, and I think yours is like this, and mine is like this, the sales team is the closest to the customer.

So they’re often the ones that have their finger on the pulse of the competitive landscape and the com, you know, and the, and how com commoditized this might be, or what, who else they’re looking at. They’re the ones with the, the market intel. And so the might what I’m saying isn’t take all the pricing discretion outta the sales team’s hand and have it be at the high ivory tower at the headquarters.

That’s not, that’s not right for most businesses. What I am saying is that we kind of build lanes around it. And say, don’t go over here. That’s bad. That’s not good. Don’t go over here. But in here, swim fast. You know, close as much business as you can inside this kind of space. And then this is the other thing is you gotta arm them.

You gotta equip them. You’ve gotta give them the training, the tools, the skillset, the mindset to command the prices they deserve, because they’re operating in a place where we all fall into this trap of the customer has all the power and I’m just doing the best I can. You add to that, this, this myth that we all believe because we’ve been taught it forever.

The market sets the price. I I it’s not, you know, I’m a salesperson. It’s not, it’s the market sets the price. I look what the competition’s doing. It’s what the customer’s doing. The market sets the price is not completely false. It does. Like, in other words, if, if you sell something today for $500,000, you can’t sell it for 5 million tomorrow.

Tomorrow. Just ’cause we sat here talking about this. Right. But 

[00:58:51] Charles Eide: I mean, that’d be great. Oh sure. I mean, I 

[00:58:52] Casey Brown: wish I but, but if the market, yeah, the market does set the price, the market sets the ceiling. This is the maximum for this. The problem is businesses are operating down here. And there’s, they’re blaming the market for why they can’t charge more.

Right. And the market is competition. And guess what? The competition doesn’t do what you do the way you do it. And that means all this power is unexercised. If you’re 10 times better than your competition, but only twice as expensive, I think you’re leaving money on the table. 

[00:59:19] Charles Eide: Yeah. That’s, that’s, I mean, ’cause you have more value.

A 

[00:59:22] Casey Brown: hundred percent. And everybody knows this, right? Like you can, you know, you could go to a really nice steakhouse that has a, a $90 steak on the menu. And h how do you think it would go if you said to the waiter, well, I can get, you know, a McDonald, McDonald’s, it’s both beef, you know, McDonald’s hamburg’s only two bucks.

If you give me the steak for a discount, I really, it’s not the same. Right. Of course. It’s not the same. 

[00:59:43] Charles Eide: Sarah, look around you. Yes. 

[00:59:45] Casey Brown: The idea that there’s, with candles, yes. The idea that there’s alternatives available for cheaper is a, is a, is just such a weak reason to discount. Because the alternatives aren’t the same.

There’s a story that a woman went into the Ritz once, and I don’t even know if this happened or not, but I heard this, uh, you know, she asked for if they have any vacancies. They said they do, they quoted the price and she said, well, there’s a, there’s a Holiday Inn down the street at $79. And they said, Madam, we’ll be happy to call you a cab.

So it’s like, okay, you don’t have to be that, uh, you know, uh, I don’t know if arrogance is the right word, but you know, there’s a diplomatic and, and approachable way 

[01:00:22] Charles Eide: Yeah. 

[01:00:22] Casey Brown: To help your customer understand that you aren’t the same as these other, you know, competitive options they’re presenting to you. And a classic one, you know, as they say, so and so’s cheaper and I want you to match their price.

And you say, okay, let me, let me understand this. Jill, I’d love to work with you. Thanks for bringing that back to me. I’d love to come back to you with a revised proposal that really still meets your needs. I’m hearing you say, if we could just erase the difference between these two prices, if we just magically these were the same number you, you’d buy from us, right?

Yeah. Okay. Why is that, Jill? Can you help me understand what it is about our proposal? Our product, our service, our approach, our team, our why would this be the choice? Because I wanna make sure when I come back, I don’t take out anything that you really value. Help me understand that. ‘

[01:01:03] Charles Eide: cause you’re better because 

[01:01:04] Casey Brown: you’re better.

’cause you’re better. That’s the, that is the why. So then here’s the thing. Here’s what I think. Did they 

[01:01:10] Charles Eide: ever kind of go, oh 

[01:01:12] Casey Brown: yeah. I mean I’ve seen this go a lot of ways and sometimes literally the price objection evaporates in the moment. That’s not often the case though. I mean, customers are cagey, they’re smart.

They’re not gonna be like, well, I need it by next week, but they can’t even start it till January. But I’m still hoping you’ll match their price. No, because they’re not gonna trot out their pricing power and laid on your plate. Right? They’re cagey, they’re smart. But good news, everybody I talk to, all you and the other people listening, you’re smart

[01:01:35] Pricing as Conversation, Not Transaction

[01:01:35] Casey Brown: too.

The key is to get the, the conversation going to like engage in a dialogue. One of the things I, there’s a number of things I see when people are asked to match competitive price that I hate. One is match the price. Gosh, you have a pile of money. Two meat in the Biddle better than match. ’cause it costs you half as much, but it’s still a lot of money.

Uh, the, the third is what I call the fruit salad approach. It’s just like, let’s make sure these two proposals are apples to apples. Jill, why don’t we understand? You know, we start, we get real ticky tacky into the details of the proposals. I don’t hate apples to apples. I just think we go to it too quickly.

Another one is we start telling ’em all the things that are great and valuable and special and wonderful about us, like we vomit value messaging at them. The problem with that is this mouth is running and the ears are closed. We’re monologuing, or sorry, we’re monologuing. We need to be dialoguing. We already know, we know for certain, because Jill asks us to match price that the, that, that she wants to buy from us.

We already know. She prefers us. We know it, but we don’t know why and we don’t know how strong that preference is. Is that worth 2%, 10%, 20%? 0.1? We don’t know why or by how much and we’re never gonna figure that out if we’re doing all the talking. So we’ve gotta ask more questions. So a question is, help me understand why you answered that way.

And then shut up and listen. And you look. It’s possible at the end of pulling that thread, asking more questions, dive in deep, pulling this thing apart, you won’t have learned anything that you can use to make a better decision around pricing. Okay, well then you’re in the exact same position you were in before you asked it.

You could still meet in the middle or apples to apples or do all the other things. But sometimes in the course of asking those kind of questions, you learn some really, really helpful information that guides your next move. 

[01:03:13] Charles Eide: That is so interesting to think about pricing as more of a conversation. Yeah. I, it’s so funny because pricing just feels so institutional, right?

Like, well, we’ve published this year’s pricing and here’s what it’s gonna be. And I think as a, as a buyer, you look at pricing as institutional. Mm-hmm. And then you try everything you can to get it for cheaper. Sure. And, and sometimes it works. 

Sure. 

But when you’re selling, you’re, you don’t think of it as institutional.

’cause you set the price. Yeah. So then you’re like. Well, how much would you pay? 

[01:03:47] Casey Brown: Yeah. Yeah. When you go into, well, I’m gonna use the car dealership a thing, and it’s like, well, how much are you looking to get into this car for as low as you’ll go? Right? Like, I, you tell me the number and then I’ll beat you up.

Like, don’t make me say a number. Right. But the, there’s something really important about what you said is this pricing as a conversation. And I think about that, particularly in businesses where there’s, there’s a consultative sales process. Nobody’s hiring you. Um, because they go to a website and say, put this in my cart.

You know, this is something they need to understand the value. There’s a, there’s probably a sales cycle where there’s a call or a demo or a several calls, several demo. I mean, it depends, right? But what I see so often is companies and salespeople are phenomenal at consultative selling all the way through the process.

They’re asking lots of questions. Tell me about what you’re trying to accomplish. What’s your vision? What’s your goal? What does success look like? Tell me about the, and we’re super consultative all the way through. And then we put out a proposal and the customer says, too expensive. And we drop from this consultative level straight down to transactions.

And now we’re horse trading about numbers. And I think especially when what you sell is expertise and very high quality service, I think it actually can tarnish your brand. Now we’re like wheeling and dealing like, no, you, you’ve been a trusted advisor all the way through. This is a chance to stay a trusted advisor even through the conversation around value and price and not get into, well, these two apple, let’s look at apples to apple.

They don’t include a, a shrimp cocktail at the reception. And we do, and like that’s the wrong thing. Now we’re, we’re transacting, we’re horse trading. If we’re asking questions like, help me understand why, why this proposal feels like the right one to you. 

[01:05:22] Charles Eide: Hmm. I like that question. 

[01:05:24] Brand Equity and Pricing Confidence

[01:05:24] Casey Brown: It’s such a different now we’re, now it is peer to peer.

We are sitting at that table as a peer, not a peddler. We go from peer all the way through. The second price happens, we drop down to Pedler and now we’re like begging for pennies. No, you still have a chance to be their, their, their advisor, their their guide and help them make a great decision. Because if they go buy from the other guy and save 10%, but they get a bad result, you haven’t served that customer.

And if you give your stuff away for less, 10% less than it’s worth, you haven’t served yourself. Which harms your ability to serve them for the next event or the next product, or the next service or the next thing. So this is to me, about being responsible for helping your customer make a prudent choice.

It’s not about gouging, greedy, taking advantage of anyone, it’s about helping them make a good choice for their business or their life. 

[01:06:12] Charles Eide: It, it’s interesting, it just feels like a lot of what you’re saying has a lot to do with your brand as well, because if you’re dropping from being an advisor down to a horse trader.

You’re basically giving up brand equity and making your brand cheap and just something completely different than you set out to be. 

[01:06:35] Casey Brown: 100%. How we price, especially in ain a transaction where the trust in you as an expert is important. How we price has everything to do with how they see our expertise.

You know, if I said, you know, Hey, I’m interested in your products and services, and you gimme a proposal and we work through this whole discovery process, and you give me one, and I say, uh, okay, that’s a little expensive. Could you do it for 10% less? You’re like, yeah, I could probably do that. Like, I don’t trust you now.

Right. I think it’s, we, we’ve abdicated the the belief like, I need you when I’m hiring you to do what you’re an expert in. I’m not an expert in what you’re an expert in, otherwise I wouldn’t hire you. You are an expert in it. And when I put price pressure on you and you cave, it’s almost like you don’t even believe in your own expertise.

[01:07:20] Charles Eide: Hmm. 

[01:07:20] Casey Brown: You’ve told me it’s not worth it. 

[01:07:23] Charles Eide: That’s now, why should I 

[01:07:24] Casey Brown: trust you? If, if I, if you quoted me 500,000 and I’ve got you down to four 50, why should I even pay you four 50? You’re not even an expert. 

[01:07:30] Charles Eide: I just makes me think of like an extreme scenario. Like you go to a brain surgeon or something and they’re, you ask for just, they’re running a $99 sale.

Like, 

what? And you’re like, wait a minute. You’re not the right surgeon if you’re willing to discount your brain surgery. And I think a lot of times we don’t look at our own businesses that way. 

[01:07:48] Casey Brown: Yeah, that’s right. 

[01:07:49] Charles Eide: Yeah, 

[01:07:49] Casey Brown: that’s right. I think it’s worth contemplating what message we send about our value to our customers and our role as a guide and expert, a trusted advisor when we are willing to give it away, 

[01:08:03] Charles Eide: our response to pricing says a lot about how good we are at what we do.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh, that’s so. F. Awesome. 

[01:08:11] Being a Trusted Advisor Through Pricing

[01:08:11] Casey Brown: Can I share? Well, thank you. I love that. Can I share one more thing about that? Yeah. So another thing that I hear a lot, and this is again, if we’re kind of staying in this space of trusted advisors, sometimes consulting firms, accounting firms, law firms, engineering firms, cer, um, marketing firms, somebody that like I am hiring you ’cause you have specific expertise.

I do not have that. I see, I get this question a lot and I think it really ties into this issue of brand where people say, well, I, I like to promote, um, or propose different options. I give them an A, B, SC, a good, better, best, right? I like, I like to always have options and that allows me to gauge where their price sensitivity is.

And I think that there’s some, there’s times that can be the right thing, but I’d like to counter what that looks like. If you’re a customer, it’s like you are the expert. I’m telling you what my pain points are, I’m telling you what my challenges are, I’m telling you what my goals are. Have a point of view about what I should do.

Mm. Don’t just lay out a buffet of options and say, what sounds good? You’re the expert, not me. You should know what I need the best. And I, when I say, when we do this in our business, we have a, we have kind of good, better, best options in our business too. But I ask questions and then the customer tells me things and I understand.

And then I say, based in everything you told me that you need, and it’s important to you, this is the best fit. 

[01:09:28] Charles Eide: Mm-hmm. 

[01:09:29] Casey Brown: Here’s why I believe it’s the best fit. If you think I’m off track on budget or scope or that we have some other ways we can serve you, but this is the best for you based on everything you’ve told me.

The idea that we’re gonna abdicate leadership in that moment, like they’re coming to us for expertise and we’re just throwing out stuff and saying, pick your, you know, whatever. Whatever sounds good. It’s not a buffet. 

[01:09:48] Charles Eide: Yeah. It’s almost like it’s an opportunity to either gain more trust from them or kill it all together.

A 

[01:09:54] Casey Brown: hundred percent. And sometimes you, you’re off track or you’re on track, they do want that, but they can’t afford that. And you say, okay, well here’s another option then. Now let’s be clear. You said this was super important. That’s not solved by this other option, but if you’re willing to live without that piece, then this can really work and it will do this and this, and this, and this for you.

Okay? Now you’re a guide. Even in the buying process, again, this isn’t about horse trading, this isn’t about transactions. This isn’t about moving numbers around on a piece of paper. It’s helping them make a good decision. It’s being responsible for educating your customers in a way that respects their value and what they care about and make a good decision for their business.

[01:10:32] Charles Eide: Yeah. I can’t help but think this, this is like when you’re describing like the wrong way to do it, it just feels so lazy and careless. Kinda like something you would do with somebody you don’t really care about, versus if it was your spouse or someone you care about, you would, you would help them think about this more, right?

[01:10:49] Casey Brown: Because the cost of making the wrong decision is, it’s important. I mean, this is, yes, a hundred percent like care. You know, if you’re an expert in what you do, if you have real mastery in, in your, in your craft. You know, what’s the right answer to the problem they have Sometimes, by the way, you know this, sometimes it’s not you.

What they need is not what you do. And that, that builds trust too. To be able to say, Hey, I hear you. This is what you want. I think this is a different thing. Mm. This is what you need and here’s why. And we don’t do that. 

[01:11:17] Charles Eide: Mm. A 

[01:11:17] Casey Brown: lot of times customers will come to us and they, you know, I’m sure you have this where it’s like, oh, I need this.

And then you say you ask questions and you’re like, that’s not what you need. Right. It just like going to the doctor and saying, my elbow hurts. I need surgery. And it’s like, well, I’m the doctor with all due respect. Let me tell me your symptoms. Tell me, you know, tell me what you’re experiencing and I will diagnose and I’ll prescribe.

Yeah. Because sometimes you think you need surgery and what you need is, is physical therapy, so we’ve gotta guide them. Yeah. We can’t just be like, oh, you, you want that? Okay, great. Here. And by the way, it’s $99 off the brain surgery. Right. Like we are the guide. I just can’t 

[01:11:51] Charles Eide: help but think about all the, like, ask your doctor about this medication and how many doctors are rolling their eyes when that happens.

Yeah. Because they’re like, I’m the 

[01:11:59] Casey Brown: doctor. Right. Like, I, I would never, yeah. The idea that like, I’m going to because my customer or my patient, like they are asking about a thing. Like, your job is to help and, and if you aren’t most concerned with serving your customers with in the best possible way, then then turn off this podcast right now.

’cause that’s not what I do. 

[01:12:19] Charles Eide: Yeah. 

[01:12:19] Casey Brown: The people that they are concerned about helping, they’re concerned about getting the right products and services in the hands of the customers that value it. And the best way to do that is not to, to, to slap a, a sales sticker on it. The best way to do it is to deeply connect with what your customers care about.

Build trust, present the right option at a price that is fair for the customer and for you. And win the business. Will you, will that work a hundred percent of the time now, because sometimes customers do things that aren’t in their best interest, even though they don’t know it, or they are, they are confused about something or they’ve decided at the end of the day, they, they don’t value the things they’ve told you.

But if you practice that kind of pricing hygiene day in, day out, you’ll win the most deals possible at the highest prices possible. 

[01:13:02] Charles Eide: Hmm mm Truth bomb. That was so good. Okay, so I have, uh, one last thing to ask you. What do you want to be remembered for?

[01:13:14] Casey’s Mission: Fearless Pricing

[01:13:14] Casey Brown: So the book that I wrote is called Fearless Pricing, not Profitable Pricing. Not, uh, uh, you know, like it’s, it, it’s about the feeling that I see, you know, I, I keynote a lot and I, I stare out into audiences in the eyes of men and women who pour their hearts out. For their quality, their service, their excellence.

They’ve taken risks, they’ve started businesses. They’ve, they’ve had that trauma we’ve talked about. They’ve, they’ve, they’ve, they’ve, they’ve been a grinder. They’ve, they’ve, they’ve been doing this for a long time and staring in their eyes and seeing that they are pouring out their hearts for quality and service and excellence.

And that’s going under rewarded. It fires me up. I can’t abide it. ’cause I know what it takes to deliver excellence. You know, hard work and passion and quality and dedication and commitment and years of building expertise. And so for me, this is like, there’s this little pile of expertise I’ve been able to amass.

And if people have it, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, even millions of dollars of incremental profitability are possible. Why that matters is what do those business owners do with that money? They expand, they grow, they add new lines of business. They hire more people. They pay themselves and their people better.

Now we’re talking about that. We’re talking about paychecks, which means we’re talking about families and communities impacted here. There’s a huge ripple. With my work. There are 30 million small businesses in this country. We employ half of America, many of them. Most of them, nearly all of them are underpricing for their excellence.

What would be possible for the human experience if people owned their value? If they squared their shoulders and they had pride in their work and they were willing to stay in the line to get it, I, that’s what I would like to be remembered for. 

[01:14:59] Charles Eide: I have no doubt you will be. How do people find out about you and tell me quick about your book.

[01:15:03] Casey Brown: Sure. So, uh, we do, uh, pricing training programs for individuals and, uh, teams that content, like you heard me share, so that you can command the prices you deserve. You can find out about that@boostpricing.com. I do a lot of keynote speaking. My speaking, uh, site is casey brown.com. I’m also on, uh, LinkedIn a lot and YouTube a lot.

So I have a lot of content out there. So there’s free resources. You can get the book Fearless Pricing, you know, Kindle version for less than 10 bucks. Um, so we have lots of different ways to connect. We also have a, uh, a relatively new. Fearless pricing community for a place to find community and get support and share wins and say, Hey, I’ve got this proposal I’m preparing tomorrow.

How should I handle that? We’re doing a lot of support around a community focus as well, and that’s at fearless pricing.com. 

[01:15:50] Charles Eide: Casey Brown, thank you for coming. 

[01:15:53] Casey Brown: It’s been my pleasure.

[01:15:59] Charles Eide: Hey, if you like this episode, make sure you subscribe, share it with somebody you like, and of course, make sure you check out my company I’d come. We produce conferences and events all over the US and if you know of a conference or an event that’s looking for the best company in the business. Check out EideCom.com.