The Leadership Expert Every CEO Studies | Pat Lencioni

Introduction [0:00]

Pat Lencioni: I did not sit down and go, “The world needs another model and I need to write a book.” I had a whiteboard at home, and we wrote it on there. Everybody who came over to our house would go through it with us, and five months later, we, we, we came up with an a- assessment, and it just took off. 

Charles Eide: The biggest CEOs in the world have one thing in common.

They all study the teachings of Pat Lencioni. This week on Clear for Takeoff, we fly down to Franklin, Tennessee to interview Pat and learn the wisdom he’s been teaching for over 30 years. 

Pat Lencioni: I like to look at business as there’s two sides of it: smart, which is the, the decision scientists, intelligence, and healthy, which is the behavioral side, the human side.

The smart side is, is becoming even more commoditized. Everybody’s got access to AI and technology and the internet and everything else. But the differentiator is the human side. And I’ve worked with a lot of CEOs who think they’re God, and it will not turn out well for them or for society as people chase this.

Tell me about these. So this is your working frustration. This is the coffee cup. You pour coffee into it, and it’s got a hole in the bottom, and it [00:01:00] just dribbles out. This drains you of joy and energy. We’re usually pretty bad at the things that drain us of joy and energy. In fact, you don’t wanna be good at it because that means you’re probably swimming way upstream.

Charles Eide: Humble, hungry, and smart are three really powerful ideas. How do you know someone is humble, hungry, and smart? So 

Pat Lencioni: I’ve never answered a quest- this question this way before ’cause I’m at a new place in this. The first thing you have to do is take-

Charles Eide: Pat Lencioni, it is so amazing to be here. Came down to Tennessee to see you. Thank you for opening up your amazing office for us, and thank you for having me. 

Pat Lencioni: Well, I appreciate you coming down here. I’ve known you for a long time- Yeah … in a lot of different contexts. Yeah. So it’s really fun to be doing 

Charles Eide: this.

This is so amazing. I’m so grateful. One of the things that stuck with me from the very beginning is that you look at leadership so differently than I think the mainstream looks at leadership, and I think that’s why it resonates so much with, [00:02:00] uh, people who are trying to improve, people who are trying to grow.

And so I wanted to understand how you got this way, though, ’cause you didn’t just come out of your family, you know, at five years old, and you’re a leadership expert. So how did we get, how did we get here? 

Pat’s Early Life & Career Path [2:17]

Pat Lencioni: No, but it did start when I was very young. 

Charles Eide: Did it? 

Pat Lencioni: Because my dad used to come home from work, God rest his soul, and he, um, he was frustrated, and I didn’t know what work was.

I didn’t know what management was, but he would talk about management. And I just remember thinking, “Oh, man, that’s a bummer. I love my dad. He’s kinda frustrated.” 

Charles Eide: Mm. “And 

Pat Lencioni: I’m gonna have to have one of those job things one day. That’s a drag.” And I remember early on thinking, “What is the deal with this work stuff?”

And it wasn’t like then I went out like Alex P. Keaton and got a, a, you know, a, uh a bag and just pretended a bit like I was a businessman, but it stuck with me. My dad should be happy when he went to work, and people should be. And a- as I got older, I was always thinking about that stuff. But, um, but my, my views [00:03:00] on work really did come from my own experiences, and, uh, I did not know when I graduated college that I’d be doing this kind of stuff.

But, um, so it just kinda happened by the grace of God. 

Charles Eide: What did you, what did you originally set out to do? What’d you, what’d you go to school for? 

Pat Lencioni: Well, I, uh, I, I was the first in my family to go to college, I mean, our generation. And, um, and my dad, again, he didn’t get to go to college, and he said, “You should study computers ’cause there’s gonna be a lot of jobs in that, accounting ’cause you can always get jobs in accounting,” and it was a liberal arts college, so he goes, “And economics.

You could do economics.” Well, I barely held on to economics. Had I done it my way, I didn’t know it at the time, but I’d have studied writing and psychology. 

Charles Eide: Hmm. 

Pat Lencioni: But I, I, I did economics, c- computers and accounting, I, I just didn’t have any thought for that. So when I got out of school, because I came from a relatively poor background, I was like, “I need to get a good job.”

So I… They said there was the best job in America that [00:04:00] year was applying on our c- was, was interviewing on our campus, and it was a company called Bain & Company, a management consulting firm. I’d never heard of any of this stuff. And so I said, “I’m gonna apply with them,” and I somehow got the job. And so I said, “I’m gonna be a management consultant.”

And I’m gonna tell you the truth. I thought that meant I was gonna be helping managers be better managers of people, and I was gonna give them advice about that. I really did. I thought, “Well, consulting to managers.” Which is what I do now. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: But it wasn’t that at all. It was, like, going in and- You 

Charles Eide: just got out of college.

You’re like, “I got this.” 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah. I was… And I was just crunching data around cost analysis, which was not my thing at all. We’ll talk about that. And so, um, 

From Bain & Company to Leadership Consulting [4:54]

Pat Lencioni: so I spent two years in, in l- kind of misery, and was like, “This is the best job in America? I’m dying here.” So I survived two years of it, and that’s when I started to actually look at, what am I, how did God wire me?

What am I supposed to do? And I slowly got into the field I’m in today. 

Charles Eide: Hmm. 

Pat Lencioni: So it was, it was by [00:05:00] accident, by the grace of God. 

Charles Eide: So you, you eventually go on to write many books. What was your first book? 

Writing Books & The Five Dysfunctions [5:07]

Pat Lencioni: Okay, so that was interesting, too. I loved writing even as a kid, and I had to have been seven or eight years old when The Waltons was on TV.

That was an old TV show. Only older folks have seen it. And the main character was this kid named John-Boy, and he was a, a writer, and every night he’d write in his journal, and I was like, “That sounds cool.” But when you come from a poor family, you don’t become a writer. You get a job. And so I, from the time I was young, I started writing, and then I went to college, and my senior year I took a screenwriting class- Wow

and a journalism class, ’cause I loved writing. And so I started writing on my own. And so- Fast forward seven years when I sit down and I come up with a leadership theory, which was my book The Five Temptations of a CEO. 

Charles Eide: Okay. 

Pat Lencioni: And somebody said, “You gotta write a book about this.” And I was gonna write a business book when I thought, “I’m gonna [00:06:00] write fiction,” ’cause that’s what I love.

So I sat down and wrote a story about a CEO, and- 

Charles Eide: So that’s where it came from. 

Pat Lencioni: Yes. 

Charles Eide: Because you write these parables. 

Pat Lencioni: They’re all fiction except for one. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. And- Yeah … I always want, I always wanted to ask you that because you write these beautifully thought out fiction things that w- like are so relatable.

Pat Lencioni: And so… And it stems from my love of screenwriting, that I love dialogue and I like realism. And, and like the f- the, my books, my favorite thing is when people say, “I think you wrote that about my company. That sounds exactly like a conversation we had.” And I always wanted the fiction to sound real. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: So I love dialogue and I love character.

So anyway, so The Five Temptations of a CEO was my first book. We didn’t have a publisher. I didn’t think it was gonna get published. We started our company, and about the third meeting there I said, “Hey, we should go to Kinko’s and make copies of this, and we’ll hand it to our clients so they understand what we’re [00:07:00] doing.”

And then Amy, one of the co-founders, her brother’s girlfriend’s best friend worked at a publishing company and said, “I’m gonna bring it to her.” And she tried and it didn’t happen, and then she called her and she goes, “I’ll read it.” And then the next day they said, “We wanna publish this.” No way. So that’s how I became an author.

Charles Eide: Holy smokes. Yeah. So when you sit down to write, ’cause you said you like dialogue, when you sit down to write these things, are you, are you taking, uh, you know, a blank sheet and writing different character qualities and personalities, giving them names and kinda personalities before you start writing? 

Pat Lencioni: You know, I’ve done that a few times.

That’s a great question. But I’m pretty fluid now. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: Uh, my son came home from college a- after his sophomore year last night, and he was driving home and I thought, “Man, I really wanna teach him something.” And I sat down and started writing a book for him. And, and I just love doing that. And I th- I, I wanted to teach him something, and instead of his dad telling him, I put these characters in this book.

And my wife read it, and she picked it up and she goes, “You’re a really good [00:08:00] writer.” And I was like, “Really?” And she said, “Yeah, you just capture people and how they talk.” So I think I like to do it kinda fluidly. I kinda know what it’s about, but I don’t have it all worked out, and I do that in the context of, of continuing the dialogue.

So you’re just 

Charles Eide: feeling the essence of these characters. Yes. You know where they’re… You know what they’re gonna say. 

Pat Lencioni: I used to do their Myers-Briggs ahead of time and everything. But I think I’m a, it’s a little bit more natural now where I just literally kinda write them as I go. Yeah. Then I’ll go back and think…

And then I have a great editor in Tracy who works in our company, one of the co-founders of our company. Yeah. And she edits my… She goes, “This character, this, you gotta do better work on this one.” So She can, she catches me when I, I drift. 

Charles Eide: Oh, that’s helpful. 

Pat Lencioni: Oh, she’s fantastic. 

Charles Eide: So when you write a book- And you’re like, “I feel like this book needs to be written.”

What, what is that like when you know it’s, it’s something that has to be done? Like, do you feel like you gotta sit down and write it all right now or are you like, “I’m gonna take eight months,” and like how does that work? 

Pat Lencioni: Y- I love these questions. I [00:09:00] really do. Um, because it’s, it, it’s not very predictable.

But I never thought I’d write more than one book. 

Charles Eide: I don’t- So that was the one you were thinking of and you’re like, “That’s it.” 

Pat Lencioni: And then I was like, “Whoa, we have this other model.” And our second book was called, it’s called The Four Obsessions of an Extraordinary Executive. And I thought, “I’ll have two books.”

I never wanted to be that guy who wrote a book ’cause somebody said, “You have to write a book.” Or you’re contracted to write three books and go, “What should I write about?” I always wanted to make sure I had a passion around it. And then the third book, The Five Dysfunctions of a Team- Mm … was actually a recast of my first book, but applied to teams.

And then after that, I would just be in a meeting with a client. Like, I wrote a book called Death by Meeting. Mm. And I remember I was at a client, I can remember exactly where it was. It was in Fremont, California. I won’t say the name of the client. I was sitting there in a meeting with the CEO and his team, and I, I would go to their meetings, and it was boring, and everybody was bored, and I thought, “This is terrible.

How can people make good decisions at a, if they’re bored? [00:10:00] There’s gotta be a way to fix this.” I remember sitting there in that meeting going, “Oh, here’s what’s wrong.” 

Charles Eide: Y- y- “

Pat Lencioni: Oh, this is what’s wrong, too.” And so- You’re like, “

Charles Eide: I’m writing a book about this right now.” 

Pat Lencioni: And then I thought, “I gotta write a book about this.”

And then the fiction is fun for me ’cause I literally just sit down and I, I just start from scratch. It’s gonna be set in Monterey. Yeah, I think it’s gonna be… It’s gonna have something to do with golf. Yeah. And- And that’s just fun for me. 

Charles Eide: That’s ama- it’s cr- it’s crazy to think your, just your God-given talent is flowing through you in these crazy ideas.

I mean, I say, I think about the idea of writing a book and I’m like, “I don’t even know where you would begin,” but it just flows out of you. 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah. 

Charles Eide: So where did it start taking off for you? ‘Cause today you’re known as the go-to guy on all of these big leadership ideas, and not just by the everyday Joe, but some of the biggest CEOs in the world obsess over your, your content, your way of thinking.

Where did that whole shift happen? Where were you like, “Oh, my [00:11:00] gosh, so-and-so wants to talk to me? They read my book”? 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah. It’s hard to know. It’s like, it’s like that frog in the pot of boiling water. That’s a bad thing. You just, it keeps getting a little warmer and warmer, and one day you go, “This is pretty warm.”

I don’t know exactly, but I do remember only, like, four or five years into our company- That Southwest Airline called me, some executives there, ’cause they wanted to talk to me. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And I was like, “You guys, Southwest Airline wants to talk to me.” And when, when I got to be friends with them, they said, “Pat Lencioni’s gonna talk to us.”

I said, “What are you talking about?” And they were like, “What are you talking about?” And so evidently people liked my books and they kinda knew who I was, but I never felt like that mattered. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: But so I don’t know how exactly that 

Charles Eide: happened. Was The Five Dysfunctions the one that kinda got ’em? 

Pat Lencioni: Yes. 

Charles Eide: Yeah.

Pat Lencioni: That’s the book that really… And to this day it’s our, it’s by far our bestseller. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: Although it’s, the, all the others are pro- probably all the others to- to combined are bigger than that. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: But, but that’s the one that really took off. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. And, and, and [00:12:00] then you have The Ideal Team Player. 

Pat Lencioni: Which was an accident.

Charles Eide: Tell me about that. 

Pat Lencioni: I was not gonna write a book about that. We realized one day that there were these, our core values as a company were these three values, and every time we’d go to a client to help them with their values, they would say, “What are yours?” And I told them ours, and they go, “We want those too.”

Mm. And I’d be like, “You can’t have our values. You need your own values.” And they go, “But we like yours.” And one day we realized, oh, people like these because those three things are really what makes somebody a good team player, which made sense ’cause we were the teamwork company. And so, um, we s- I was telling a friend of mine named Matthew Kelly, I don’t know if you know his, he’s a writer, and he said, “You gotta write a book about that.”

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And I was like, “I think it’s too simple.” He goes, “No, it’s not too simple.” And so I wrote it. Do you know, for the first time a month ago, I think, for the first time ever one of our books actually went above The Five Dysfunctions in a week? 

Charles Eide: Whoa. 

Pat Lencioni: And it was that one. And so even today, and I don’t know if it’s been 10 years, 11 years since we wrote that book- 

Charles Eide: Yeah[00:13:00] 

Pat Lencioni: it’s actually growing. 

Charles Eide: It’s unbelievable that the, the humble, hungry, smart idea, and you, you did a TED Talk about this. Yeah. And I wanna, I wanna dive into that, if you don’t mind, because I think it is one of the most useful tools to identify great people versus the average. And so I, I would like to understand w- how did you come up with humble, hungry, smart, and how do they apply, and how do I identify who I am and what they are?

The Ideal Team Player: Humble, Hungry & Smart [13:31]

Pat Lencioni: So humble, hungry, smart came about because I m- I met Jerry Porras, who wrote with Jim Collins the book called Built to Last years ago before I started my own company. He said, “You have to have core values.” So my team, and this w- I had not started my own company. I was still working at another company. We went off-site and we said, “What are our team’s core values?”

And we came up with humble, hungry, smart. And I remember thinking, “Man, I love working with people who don’t have egos, and who I don’t have to a- ask to work [00:14:00] harder. If anything, I have to back ’em off.” 

Charles Eide: Mm-hmm. 

Pat Lencioni: And who know how to deal with people. They’re not smart intellectually as much as interpersonally.

Man, if I can hire a person who’s humble, hungry, and smart, they’re easy. They’re just fun to be around. And so we just did that. We didn’t realize that that was actually going to be the definition of the team player. So that happened, and then we, we were using that ourselves for years, as I said. And I think the power of that model is lies in its simplicity.

Dave Ramsey, who’s a friend of mine now, he has conference rooms at his company down the road not too far from here called Humble, Hungry, Smart. Because when he read that book, he goes, “Pat, this is… I, I, you know, this is really great. I love this.” ‘Cause they hire people, they’re like, “Make sure they’re humble, hungry, and smart.”

And it makes it so much easier than like 100 different attributes and, and, um… So I think the key to that and all of my work is that it’s simple enough to put it into practice and to remember. Remember, I don’t have a graduate degree in anything, [00:15:00] in anything. And I came from Bakersfield, California, which is a little slice of Oklahoma in the middle of California.

And my parents didn’t go to college, and I learned, like, to look at things as in simple ways. And so when I went to Bain, which was very sophisticated, Harvard people and all these different things, and I went to a good college, but I didn’t come from a background like that. I would just go to meetings, and when I didn’t understand something, I would say, “I don’t get it.”

And people would come up to me between meetings and go, “I didn’t get it either, but I didn’t wanna ask.” So I’m that guy who looks at complex things and just says, “Doesn’t it just boil down to this, this, and this?” 

Charles Eide: And- You know, like, keep it simple. 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah. And, and I think that a lot of executives are looking for things that are applicable, understandable, and trustworthy.

Charles Eide: So humble, hungry, and smart are three really powerful ideas. Obviously, they’re derived from so many other things- Yeah … but they’re the distillation, right? How do you, how do [00:16:00] you, how do you know someone is humble, hungry, and smart? ‘Cause you know how it is. People interview, and you meet them, and they seem great.

And they do these, you know, they do the predictive index or the working genius or- 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah … 

Charles Eide: how do you figure that out? 

How to Interview for Humble, Hungry & Smart [16:28]

Pat Lencioni: Well, it’s, it’s a great question. And in the book, we actually did put together a, like, a way to interview and the kinda questions to ask. But it’s not a science. It’s an art. But you can ask the right questions that narrow the bounds of the art.

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And it, there’s no perfect way to do it, but what, one of the things we, we say is the way you interview people, you’re gonna find out if they’re humble, hungry, smart. And if you do it based on their resume, and if you do it based on a typical interview, what everybody’s learned to practice. The, there’s courses and years of research about how to write a, a resume so people don’t see your flaws.

And people go to interview, and they practice, and they show you what to do. So, so we always tell people, “Do untraditional interviews.” We like to say, “Take them to buy underwear. Go to the [00:17:00] grocery. Go to the department store. Come on, I have to go do something. Come with me.” And they’re like, “Uh, okay.” “I’m going to the underwear section.”

You know? Make them a little uncomfortable, and they’re gonna be like- And you’re gonna see what they’re really like. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: Get them out of the office. 

Charles Eide: It’s funny, my best salesperson, uh, she’s been with us the longest. She’s incredible. And I remember when I found out she was looking, and we interviewed her, and I was talking to her, and I was like, “She’s gonna be a home run.

I know it. And but I really wanna see who she is.” I flew her out i- with me in the plane, in a little prop plane at the time, to go see FOCUS, the- Oh … the big Catholic organization. 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah, 

Charles Eide: yeah, yeah. And they’re, they’re a client, and I brought her along, and I wanted to see who she was outside of just a boardroom.

And the more time I spent with her, the more I was like, “This person is incredible, and I, I have to have this person join our team.” And I’ll tell you, it’s been nine insanely good years. Yeah. And it’s only getting better, and I’m like, “That’s [00:18:00] true.” Yeah. You ta- do the outside of the boardroom stuff. 

Pat Lencioni: You know, I g- here’s a great story.

A woman who’s, who’s spoken at FOCUS before, her name’s Lisa Brennekmeier, a dear friend of mine. Mm. She, um, she once hired somebody, and it was a bad h- it was the wrong hire. And she goes, “We were desperate. We needed somebody with the right skill set. We just hired a person, and we looked at the resume, and they had done it before.”

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And a year later, they had to exit part ways. And she said, “Had I taken her shopping, I’d’ve seen it all.” She goes, “I didn’t do it.” And so many leaders of the most sophisticated companies in the world, it, what it comes down to is not their resume and what their experience or their education. It’s like do they fit the culture, and can they slide onto a team?

And that’s why I think a lot of CEOs are like, “Yeah, I wanna know if they’re humble and greed’s smart.” 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And so when you go to the interviews, take them into an environment where you, they’re gonna have to be real. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: Also, ask them questions again and again ’cause people can answer the [00:19:00] question the first time the right way.

But there’s something about probing and asking a different way and asking somebody what other people would say about them that gets to the right answer. One of my favorite stories is I almost hired a guy. He was actually in the audience when I gave this speech years later, and I told the story about him.

And he was in the audience, and he came up to me afterward. So here’s the story. I was gonna hire him at, within the company I worked at, not at my comp- This was before I started The Table Group, and I didn’t think he was humble. And the r- the, for me, what that meant is I didn’t think he was, like, capable of, of being forgiving.

Like I, if somebody offended him, I thought, “I don’t know if he’ll recover from that.” 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And so everybody on my team and everybody above me in the organization said, “You gotta hire this guy. He’s really talented.” And I wanted to ’cause I needed him, but there was something in my gut that said, “I don’t know if that humility is there.”

So I went and did my last interview with him, and I just said, “Are, do you forgive people easily?” That’s a softball [00:20:00] question. Who’s gonna say, “No, I don’t. I’m an ax murderer.” And he said, “Yeah. Yeah, I do.” But I was like- I don’t think he meant that. I’m not there yet. I call this the Law & Order school of interviewing.

You know, have you ever seen Law & Order? Oh, yeah. You know, ka-kung. Yeah. It’s like, it’s like they, they go to a perp, and they’re like, “Did you kill her?” “No.” “Did you kill her?” “No.” “Did you kill her?” “Okay, I killed her.” You ask three times- … and they admit it. So I came back in the interview again, and later I said, “Hey, if you get in an argument with your friends and they make you mad, how do you come back from that?”

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And he’s like, “Yeah, I c- we, we’re fi- my friends and I, we can get…” And I was like, “I still didn’t think so. I gotta keep asking.” So at, toward the end of the interview, I said, “If I asked your wife if you hold grudges, what would she say?” And he goes, “Oh, she’d say I’m a huge grudge 

Charles Eide: holder.” Oh. 

Pat Lencioni: And I knew it.

I mean, I had that gut feel, and he admitted it. And, and, and it was good because there’s plenty of jobs where he would be fine, but not working with me in my organization, ’cause we really needed that. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And so that’s how we avoided making a bad hire. [00:21:00] Is that a science? No. But I, I tell people, “When you’re interviewing, know what you’re looking for, make sure your gut, it, you’re informed by your gut, and keep asking questions until you’re convinced.”

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And then the last thing, looking for humble, hungry, and smart. If you’re really serious about it, I like to say scare people with sincerity at the end of the interview. If you have just even a slight question, say to them, “Listen, we really need people that are hungry here. And I know everybody says that.

And I know I’ve asked you, and you said you’d be willing to work hard. But the truth is we do a lot of crazy things for our clients, and there’s some times where we gotta be here late or we gotta be on, travel on weird times. And if you’re hungry, you’re gonna love working here, ’cause everybody else is that way too.

But if you’re not, you’re gonna hate it.” “‘Cause we’re gonna expect you to be, and you’re not gonna like that. And we’re gonna be frustrated with you, and we will probably have to let you go.” “And it’s gonna be really uncomfortable. And I don’t say that to be mean. I just don’t want you to [00:22:00] get into something you don’t…

So, so that hunger thing, we’re really serious about it. And if you’re hungry, welcome aboard. But if not, this would be the right time to leave.” People will actually go, “Yeah, let me think about it some more.” But, but we don’t do that in interviews. We make it too easy. It’s like dating and trying to convince the per- It’s like just show your warts.

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: Does this bother you? No? Awesome. And so we try to get people to be really raw in interviews. Mm. Do it in an untraditional way. Ask the questions over and over. Be completely naked about what you’re looking for and why, and the right people will be attracted, and the right people will be repelled.

Charles Eide: Yeah. When, when you had asked context, like, would your wife… Right? Do you, do you think that there’s something that kinda changes the way they see themselves when you make them look through someone else’s eyes? 

Pat Lencioni: Totally. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And, and it’s not, it’s not that big, ’cause people go like, “Well, what would your refer- what would your last manager say?”

Which is a great question. I guess to a certain extent people think, “Well, you might call my last [00:23:00] manager.” 

Charles Eide: Mm-hmm. 

Pat Lencioni: More importantly, it’s so much harder to- To bend the truth for someone else 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: It’s one thing to say it about yourself, but you almost feel bad about saying it. And when you say to somebody, “Okay, we’re looking for somebody who’s really emotionally intelligent.

If I were to ask your friends where you rank on that, what would they say?” There’s something about that that people go, “Well, I, I…” They probably wouldn’t say I’m terribly emotionally intelligent. It’s weird. Yeah ‘Cause you just don’t wanna put those words in their mouth, and I don’t think they think I’m gonna call their friends.

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: But I do think there’s something that people are more honest when they have to answer for other people. 

Charles Eide: That’s such an interesting idea because in the book Who, and you’ve probably read that- Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah … by Geoff Smart. 

Pat Lencioni: Oh, yeah. I think- Gosh, that’s been years … yeah, r- He’s a really nice guy.

Charles Eide: Oh, I love that book, but in the book he says, you know, you say things like, you know, “When I speak to your previous three leaders,” right? “What will they say?” But I think what you just said is totally different, [00:24:00] which is making people think about how the people around them would think about them if you were to pose a question to them.

Pat Lencioni: Yeah, I will say asking, “When I speak to them,” if you’re planning to do that, that makes it even more apparent . Yeah. But you don’t even have to do that, I think- Yeah … to get people to… And again, because the other thing, you could prep those other people to say the right thing. 

Charles Eide: Yes, you could. 

Pat Lencioni: And I’m really looking for that gut feel, and it’s not because I wanna reject them.

I wanna make sure they, they… When I interview people, it’s like, “I want you to love it here.” 

Charles Eide: Yeah. “

Pat Lencioni: So I’m gonna tell you the truth about what it’s like to work here, and what would be kind of weird for some people to work here. One person’s trash is another person’s treasure.” 

Charles Eide: Yeah. “

Pat Lencioni: So I’m gonna tell you what it’s like to work here so that you can know that this might not be a fit for you.”

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And I’ve interviewed people that I’ve rejected for our company and helped them find jobs at other places ’cause it’s like, “You would be great at this other company.” Yeah. “But I think this would be odd for you.” And they’re like, “Yeah.” It shows 

Charles Eide: you, you, you inherently [00:25:00] as a leader really do care about the people that come into your sphere, right?

You said you 

Pat Lencioni: want- 

Charles Eide: Oh, yeah, yeah, 

Pat Lencioni: yeah … 

Charles Eide: right? When, when you talk to leaders that are trying to aspire to care more, w- what do you tell someone? Take someone like me, you know. I have a business, and I’ve got employees. We got about 50 people, and I truly do want them to, to have a great, uh, career and happiness.

But how… what would you say to someone like me that wants to be better about truly caring about their happiness in the job and their success in the job? 

Leadership, Vulnerability & Building Trust [25:36]

Pat Lencioni: I love this question ’cause it is my motivation, ’cause I go back to my dad. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: I just think, I think people should find dignity and, and hope in their work.

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And I think most leaders want that, too. Some don’t, and, um- And it’s, so don’t say it if you don’t. Mm-hmm. But if you do, and, and I… So I’ve never answered a quest- this question this way before, ’cause I’m at [00:26:00] a new place in this. The first thing you have to do is take care of yourself. That sounds crazy, but sometimes we want to give to our employees, and I’ve made this mistake, and we’re doing it from a deficit or we’re doing it out of fear, and, and eventually we run out of our ability to give.

Charles Eide: For sure. 

Pat Lencioni: And, and, and so we do have to put on our own oxygen mask first. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And that’s not selfish, but if you’re kinda wounded, you think, “Oh, that’s selfish. I should just give to all these people.” And it’s like, no, eventually- It beats dead. Exactly. So take care of yourself. The other thing is you’re gonna have to be vulnerable.

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: You’re gonna have to know, and I’d say this to people that say, “I wanna be the world’s best parent.” It’s like, okay, then know that you’re gonna make mistakes. I’ve been talking to a lot of people that are, have new babies or new ki- young kids, and one of the things I learned is this: You’re gonna make mistakes.

You are going to hurt, not physically hopefully, but you’re gonna hurt your kids sometimes. You’re gonna say the wrong things. You’re gonna do the wrong things. Come to terms with that now- 

Charles Eide: Mm … 

Pat Lencioni: so that when it happens, you can actually admit it. [00:27:00] And you can go, “Oh, I’m sorry. I was wrong,” or, “Oh, I shouldn’t have done that.”

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: But when you try to be a perfect boss, and you think you have to be a perfect boss, you’re gonna make a mistake, and if you can’t acknowledge it, admit it, and come to terms with that, you’re just gonna compound it. So be vulnerable. Be that manager that says, “Gosh, I wanna do a great job in leading you,” and you’re gonna make a mistake and be the first one to go, “Oh, that was really bad, wasn’t it?

I’m sorry.” People will walk through walls of fire for people that are vulnerable. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: Very few people like to be vulnerable. It’s, it’s uncomfortable. The, the w- the word itself comes from wounds, woundedness. To be vulnerable means I’m gonna let other people see my woundedness. It’s never comfortable. If it, if it is comfortable, then it’s fake.

And a leader that can say, “I feel really bad about what I said to you,” or, “I feel really bad that I let you down,” or, “I’m really sorry. I was wrong about this,” that is one of the most powerful things you can [00:28:00] do. Mm. Employees will walk through walls of fire for leaders that are vulnerable, and yet we’re taught not to let people see us sweat.

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: We’re like, “You’re gonna be a leader. Be confident. Be on. Do the right thing. Don’t let people know that you might have some lack of confidence in a decision.” 

Charles Eide: Why do you think that is? 

Pat Lencioni: You know, I, I, I think it had to do with… I think it’s generational. I think part of it had to do with, with… I mean, it’s, it doesn’t feel safe in the moment, and, um, I think it’s the human condition to protect, you know?

Charles Eide: To look perfect, to look- 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah … 

Charles Eide: unblemished. 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah. I mean, it’s a, it’s a deep, great question. And, um, and it may be generational, but I think it’s just the human condition. It’s like to… It’s like we wanna send Christmas cards saying, “My family is perfect.” I hate those things. 

Charles Eide: My wife would love you for saying that.

She hates Christmas cards. 

Pat Lencioni: I know. I don’t, I don’t even look at them anymore. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You 

Charles Eide: get these letters in the mail, you’re like, “What is all this? It’s a freaking page for [00:29:00] each of your kids?” 

Pat Lencioni: We are the only family that’s imperfect. Which is why the best people in the world… And people wanna work for a manager that goes, “You know what?

Don’t let them see you sweat.” You want the manager that goes, “

Charles Eide: Check this out.” Look at my pit stain. 

Pat Lencioni: Exactly, because we want to know that they’re human. Yeah. And we’ll follow them because they’re human. And nobody wants people to be falsely perfect, ’cause nobody is perfect, other than God. And so I think that it’s just the human condition.

Yeah. And yet when you do it, it’s so… such a relief, ’cause the people around you are like, “You too? Okay, let me tell you mine.” 

Charles Eide: You’re human. 

Pat Lencioni: You ever get together with a dad or a mom and, and they’re telling you, like, “Oh, yeah, I made a mistake with my kid the other day,” and you’re like, “Oh, thank God I’m not a freak.”

Charles Eide: Yes. 

Pat Lencioni: And yet… So, so the best cultures in the companies, the best leaders, the best leadership teams are messy and vulnerable and human. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: But it’s, it’s never gonna be cultur- I- that’s counter-cultural, which is why the best companies [00:30:00] really stand out. 

Charles Eide: Mm. You 

Pat Lencioni: know, I talked to you about Southwest Airlines.

For years, they’re going through a lot right now, it’s a different world for them, but for years they were this really messy company. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And they would say things on the flights that other people wouldn’t say, and I knew the executives, and they were just totally wacky and human. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And it, it attracted people.

And it, it repelled some, and they were okay with that. Yeah. But the best cultures are not perfect, neat, and tidy, they’re messy. 

Charles Eide: Did you learn some of this stuff from your dad? ‘Cause you talk about the lessons you learned from your dad. 

Pat Lencioni: I don’t think so. I don’t think so, ’cause he came from a generation that was not terribly open with their emotions.

Charles Eide: Right. 

Pat Lencioni: I think I learned it, um… I think I probably learned it from my woundedness. Like, growing up in a world where I felt like I had to be perfect. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And realizing there’s something really attractive and desirable about knowing you can be imperfect. [00:31:00] Like, I kinda like, when I’m giving a speech or doing consulting or in a meeting, I like when things go wrong so I can enter the danger and just go, “That was stupid.”

I mean, I’ve done some things on stage and some things in front of a group of executives that were just absolutely ridiculous. And you’re in that moment where you’re like, “I’m gonna admit this or I’m gonna pretend it didn’t happen.” And the relief of admitting it is like- Oh, that was not near as bad as pretending 

Charles Eide: Well, the grace people give you, they’re like, “Oh- Yes

I love you for just saying what we’re all thinking.” 

Pat Lencioni: Well, and I’ve worked with your company for years. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And, and we n- we love that if you guys made a mistake. Because… And it’s events, and it’s mission critical, and it’s crazy pressure. Yeah. And all these people doing this know that. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And when you make a mistake and somebody goes, “That, that technology failed.”

And you go, “I know. We’re so sorry.” [00:32:00] People are like, “You are?” And like, “Oh, yeah, we felt even worse than you did.” Oh, yeah. You’re like, “No, don’t feel bad.” Yeah. “You guys are great.” Oh. But if you go, “No, that wasn’t our fault,” or, “We didn’t notice that.” 

Charles Eide: That was the manufacturer. 

Pat Lencioni: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And so I remember Mike and you in the early days.

Yeah. And, and so there’s something about humanity that draws people- Yeah … but we’re, we’re also afraid to do that, ’cause for a moment there’s that, there’s that sense of, “This might not go well.” 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And for every time you admit something about yourself and somebody takes advantage of you, there’s 19 times where they appreciate it, but you gotta suffer through that one time- Mm

to get that. And some people are just like, “Nope, I’m never gonna do that.” 

Charles Eide: So the, you, y- a lot of what you’re saying points to, to building trust, right? Yes. Like, a lot of this- Yeah … is, starts right at the base of trust. Why do you, why do you think today, in today’s world, that’s more important than it’s ever been?

The Human Side of Business vs. AI & Technology [32:59]

Pat Lencioni: You know, I think that because of AI and [00:33:00] technology and all these other things, I think that… You know, I, I like to look at businesses, there’s two sides of it. Smart, which is the, the decision scientists, the intelligence. And healthy, which is the behavioral side, the human side. The smart side is, is becoming even more commoditized.

It was when I started my career at The Table Group 28 years ago, but it only gets more and more that way. Everybody’s got access to AI and technology and the internet and everything else. But the differentiator is the human side. And so if you can create an, an authentically human company culture, your customers will reward you for it, your good employees will reward you for it, your bad employees will leave because they don’t want that, which is good, and your bad customers will leave because they don’t want that either.

And it just makes everything easier. So I think in this world of automation, the human side is the big differentiator. Um, and there’s just certain things that the automated side can’t do. 

Charles Eide: Do you think [00:34:00] that there will be a point where the human side doesn’t matter? 

Pat Lencioni: No. No, no, no. ‘

Charles Eide: Cause you hear a lot of that.

Pat Lencioni: Yeah, that’s just ridiculous. Yeah. I mean, imagine. That, uh, okay, that’s like saying, there will be a day… And the problem is there are people that will chase this. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And it will not turn out well for them or for society as people chase this. But there are people that think, well, if you could build a robot woman or guy that would, that would do all the right things for you, why do you need a…

And it’s like, no, it’s human. It’s your soul. I mean, I believe in God. And I believe that we are made in God’s image. Yeah. To think that we can create… I mean, there’s something so wrong about… That’s like, “No, I’m God. I can create a human being.” 

Charles Eide: Hmm. 

Pat Lencioni: You can’t. No. Life is sacred. And so I do think there are companies, and I think usually, and I’ve worked with a lot of CEOs who think they’re God.

Charles Eide: Hmm. 

Pat Lencioni: And so they’re trying to create something that only people can. And, and I ha- I will [00:35:00] tell you, there’s a company out there that I really don’t like. I hope it fails. Um, I, I, I feel so visceral about it, and that’s Waymo. I don’t think it’s good at all. 

Charles Eide: Hmm. 

Pat Lencioni: I don’t, I, I really don’t like it because there are…

Getting into a car and having to say hello to somebody and learning about who they are and their culture- 

Charles Eide: I love talking to people driving … 

Pat Lencioni: So do I. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: I’ve met great people that I’ve connected with. I’ve prayed with them. They’ve prayed for me. We’ve, we’ve learned about cultures and different things.

And to get into a car and think that’s okay? I, I also hate the idea of drones delivering things to my door or those little robots that drive around. W- people need each other. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And we’re meant to interact with each other. And so the, I, I think that there comes a point when you ask somebody, “Why are you doing that?”

And they don’t know. It’s like that, in Jurassic Park, what was the thing? Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should. Hmm. Now, there’s certain automation that makes life better. A lot [00:36:00] does. Yeah. But there’s times when it’s like, “Why are you doing this?” “Because I can.” 

Charles Eide: Yeah. Why do you think we are chasing this idea of…

Do you, like, do you think that there’s some, like, secret agenda to make people feel more isolated? Or, or maybe it’s just the, the way it’s been. 

Pat Lencioni: I don’t think it’s an agenda. I mean, there are some people that are that evil. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: Very few. They’re like, “I just want people to be miserable,” and I, you know. I guess so.

They’ve given in to the dark side, if you will. And I don’t mean Star Wars. But, um, but I think what it is, it’s people who have lost sight of the purpose of what they’re doing. You know, I ca- So I’m, I’m a capitalist- Yeah … ’cause I think that that’s the best way to make new things and to take care of people.

I also believe in charitable giving and kindness and, and grace and mercy. But I believe that a competitive society comes up with new things, and it’s good when companies compete. But I think pursuing the maximum profit in your business, maximum [00:37:00] profit is not the purpose of business. 

Charles Eide: Hmm. 

Pat Lencioni: There are so many things that you could do at ICOM and that I could do at The Table Group to make more money, and sometimes people assume we’re gonna do that.

And like, “You know, you could make more money if you did that.” We’re like, “I know.” “So why don’t you do it?” It’s like- ‘Cause that’s not the purpose. We’re making good profit. We love doing this thing. We would rather invest in this new idea that we think could change people’s lives. ‘Cause see, we can afford to do that, and if it never materializes from a monetary standpoint and we can still be very successful, I’d rather do that than just maximize profit, which is why I’m not a big fan of public companies.

Charles Eide: Hmm. 

Pat Lencioni: Whenever a company goes public, they IPO, I’m always very sad for them, ’cause they’re entering a world where there’s this collective assessment of their success which almost becomes the maximization of profit. 

Charles Eide: Oh, for sure. It’s all shareholder return. 

Pat Lencioni: Right. And that’s why I think the healthiest societies and the healthiest economies are thriving because of small to medium sized [00:38:00] businesses.

Charles Eide: 100%. 

Pat Lencioni: Where people know the CEO, and the CEO knows the people that have just got hired, and everybody feels a connection, and they see the benefits of their work, and they know their customers. And when there’s level after level after level who work on the floor above and the floor above and the floor above, and they don’t feel connected to anything, I think that’s not good for people in a whole bunch of different ways.

So I think the reason why we do this is ’cause we bought into the idea of maximizing profit. Hmm. And I’ve met some very, very, very wealthy people, and none of them are very, very, very, very happy. 

Charles Eide: Really? 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah, because it’s almost an addiction. Like, was the next IPO gonna do it for me? Is the next million gonna do it for me?

And again, that’s not to say that the profit motive or incentive doesn’t create, make companies make good decisions, but it’s not… It’s a, you know, it’s, it’s a s- it’s not a driver, it’s a satisfier. Yeah, 

Charles Eide: yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: You know the difference between a sat- Yeah, yeah … a satisfier is you need enough of it to, to live. A driver is something you need more of.

Love is a [00:39:00] driver. Nobody’s gonna go, “Enough love.” But money is like, it’s diminishing marginal returns at some point. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And people are like, “I guess that’s what we should just keep pursuing.” And you see these athletes and CEOs and entertainers who are just never, it’s never enough. 

Charles Eide: Do you think there’s a point that people hit where the, the success or money changes them for, for more instead of for purpose?

And- 

Pat Lencioni: Yes, but it’s not greed 

Charles Eide: What is it? 

Pat Lencioni: Pride. 

Charles Eide: Pride. 

Pride, Purpose & Seeking Approval [39:32]

Pat Lencioni: Pride and wounds. So in other words… ‘Cause look at these athletes who are like, “Okay, I made $40 million playing last year. I’m gonna hold out for 60.” It’s not about I need another $20 million next year. It’s I wanna be seen as more valuable than the others.

And, and, and people, beware of somebody called the GOAT in anything, the greatest of all time, ’cause most GOATs, [00:40:00] they hit a place where it’s like you’re wildly successful. Wouldn’t you wanna just have a family, enjoy what you’re doing, and not put so much pressure on it? It’s like, “No, I gotta keep going further and further.”

It’s because it’s never enough. And so many CEOs I talked to came from a, an, a, a childhood, and I had some of this, where it’s like, yeah, I never thought … I had to prove myself, and I was never enough. And there comes a point where you had to go, “Hey, I need to get good with who I am to know God loves me.

Then I can continue to do what I do, but not out of fear, but out of joy that we’re doing something really good.” But so many of the world’s greatest athletes, entertainers, and even CEOs are just running from failure. And people will look at that, and then they’ll say, “Well, that’s a high-class problem, ’cause look it, you’re rich, and you’re famous, and you’re powerful.”

And it’s like, it’s not a high-class problem, it’s a very, very big problem. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And again, I say that as somebody who’s like, I love when companies succeed, and I love when people achieve things, but if they’re doing it out of fear of failure and the need to prove themselves, [00:41:00] there, that’s just, there’s no there there.

Charles Eide: So how do I look inside myself to, to realize which direction I’m going and maybe how to change it? 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah. So I would be lying to you if I didn’t say that it starts with faith. And I’m a follower of Jesus, and it’s like, I need to know that I’m made in the image of God, and I wanna do what He wants me to do, not what I want to do.

Because that’s the difference between me … Like, He’s God, I’m not Him. I wanna please Him, not me. So you start there. But then He made you. He made you with a Myers-Briggs type. He made you with a working genius type. There’s other tools out there, too, which are all just categories of who Charles is. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And you’re meant to live consistent with that.

So what we do is we look at a lot of executives and we go, “Why do you do that? That doesn’t seem like you.” They’re like, “Well, I have to do it because of this.” We’re like, “Why?” “Well, because of this.” “Why?” “Well, I don’t wanna let people down.” “Well, why, what are you worried about?” It’s like, and they’re like, “I don’t know.

I guess I’ve always been afraid that I was gonna fail.” 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And you gotta [00:42:00] come to terms with that. And you gotta go back there. And th- I’m not a touchy-feely guy, but you gotta go back there and confront these early things. It’s usually early in life where you thought, “I gotta prove myself.” 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And then you gotta look at your life situation now and say, what are your priorities?

And, and can you live with that not, not being the greatest at that? Is your identity tied up in me being perceived as successful and, and I always say pursuing the approval of strangers? 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: That’s such a lonely thing, but so many do. 

Charles Eide: Why do you think we do that? ‘Cause I remember being in my 20s and 30s- Oh, 

Pat Lencioni: yeah

Charles Eide: and being like, “I’m gonna build this big giant thing,” you know, and in my mind I’m like, “I’m gonna, I’m gonna have a Lamborghini, and I’m gonna be … Everyone’s gonna think I’m great.” And then I … Yeah, at a certain point you’re like, “But Lamborghinis aren’t even that great.” Like, I, uh, you know. And, and why do I want that?

So people on the road see who’s this hotshot in the car and … It ta- At some point there was, like, a, a thing that [00:43:00] changed in me. 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah. 

Charles Eide: But, like, why do you think we want to seek the approval, especially high achievers? 

Pat Lencioni: I think it’s because- We, I, I honestly think that at the heart of it is not completely understanding the love of God.

Charles Eide: Tell me more about that. 

Pat Lencioni: Well, the- we, we think we’re verbs, not nouns. We think we’re like, well, I’m loved for what I do, not who I am, so we keep doing and thinking doing is gonna get us the peace we … It’s all about peace, by the way. Ultimately, what everyone wants in the world is peace. And, uh, I love this.

There’s a guy named G.K. Chesterton who wrote a book, and wrote many books, but he said, “Every man who knocks on the door of a brothel is searching for God,” which I love it, and every guy who buys a Lamborghini is searching for God. Mm. And everybody who wants to… Now, that doesn’t mean there’s not interesting things we do in life, but sometimes when we think that’s gonna make me happy, every guy that has to win the Super Bowl for the seventh time is searching for [00:44:00] God.

‘Cause after the seventh one, you’re like, “I think it’s the eighth one that’s gonna do it.” And so I think that when we don’t know that it’s just I can just sit here and be me, and that’s okay. And, and, and so the, the people who achieve the most in life are the ones that have to keep achieving. And, and so you kind of came to that conclusion.

You’re like, “Oh, it’s not about all those other things.” 

Charles Eide: Mm-mm. 

Pat Lencioni: Now you can do like, oh, what’s meaningful? What can help other people more? You know the best thing about my business right now is that we are engaging in new projects, and we’re- we can do this ’cause we- we- we’ve been blessed, without worrying about monetizing it.

Like, we’re launching a new project around the stuff we’re talking about right now, and people are like, “So how you- how much money are you gonna make from that?” We’re like, “We don’t know, but we know it’s needed. We know that even if we don’t quite break even, it would be totally worth it.” And people are like, “But that doesn’t make sense.”

And it’s like, but we can do [00:45:00] that now. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And I think that’s the most beautiful thing is where you’re not doing it because of what it’s gonna give you. You’re doing it because it gives you joy to help others. 

Charles Eide: And I- Where, where did you get your joy for helping other people, though? Like, I- I- I look at what you’re talking about, and I’m like, yeah, traditionally, spending money on a project that doesn’t even break even, to most business people, would be kind of insane.

Right. But you, you clearly have this thing in you that you’re like, “I don’t really care. I want it to do good in the world.” W- where did that… Wh- where did you get that? 

Pat Lencioni: So, and that’s great ’cause we talk about mission over money. Now, the, what… I- if anybody that’s watching this that’s cynical about that, if you continue to do…

It’s not gonna break even. You’re gonna go out of business. I get that. Like I said, we’re blessed to do that ’cause we’ve made good money and, and our margins are high enough that we can actually cut into those margins by doing things that matter. 

Charles Eide: Sure. 

Pat Lencioni: Some of that comes from my personality. I’m a idealist, and I get joy and [00:46:00] energy out of seeing other people become their best.

Um, the, the core of it is my faith. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: Knowing that at the end of the day, God is gonna say that question, “What did you do with what I gave you?” And it’s like, I hope it was for others and not for me, ’cause it’s all a gift. You know, we do this thing called Working Genius, and it’s about the gifts God gave you.

And, and I always say to people, “So should you brag about your gifts?” And it’s like, do you … Wouldn’t you brag about the giver? 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: If somebody said, “Look at this car. I’m so cool.” “Where’d you get it?” “My dad gave it to me.” You mean you’re bragging about your dad now. Your 

Charles Eide: dad’s awesome. 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah. So, so that’s where it comes for from me.

But I’m gonna tell you, for years in my woundedness, I tried to help other people because I thought it would make them approve of me. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And that is where I was giving out of my deficit. 

Charles Eide: And where did that shift? 

Pat Lencioni: Um, well, to be quite honest, about five years ago I finally hit the wall. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And [00:47:00] I realized I needed to actually go deeper.

And, uh, and so I got a counselor, and I got a spiritual director, and I started … And then I, I went deeper and deeper, and it was the most painful and important thing I’ve ever done in my life, and I’m a different man because of it. 

Charles Eide: Wow. 

Pat Lencioni: For years I was white-knuckling it- 

Charles Eide: Mm … 

Pat Lencioni: in business, trying to be a great manager, trying to be a great husband, trying to be a great dad.

And I think I was pretty good in all those areas, but not out of joy. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And then I would do the wrong things because I was so afraid not to do it well. So five years ago I went deep, and I finally, uh, finally … And now it’s a work in progress, which is awesome. 

Charles Eide: What led you to the, that point five years ago?

Were you burning out? 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah. 

Charles Eide: Or … Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And I think what happened a few years ago where I went the deepest is when my youngest son went away to college, and he just came home last night, which is great, for after his second year, and I was an empty nester. Mm. 

Charles Eide: And 

Pat Lencioni: I think I c- I white-knuckled it forever because I had a son at home, and my wife and I [00:48:00] were trying to do what’s best for our kids.

And when he went away to college, I was like, now there was this vacuum, and Laura and I were like, “Oh, now what?” And I was like, “I better g- I better look at this now,” ’cause I was white-knuckling it for them. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And I … Now it’s like, now you gotta go take care of yourself. I gotta put the oxygen mask on myself.

Charles Eide: Yeah. Sounds like you did a lot of deep work. 

Pat Lencioni: Oh, Charles, it was the deepest thing I’ve ever done, and the hardest thing I’ve ever done, and it was horribly painful and completely rebuilding and a great thing. And I’ve, I pray that I never go through it again. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: But if it’s God’s will and that’s what I need to do to get to be the person who knows who He is, then I will.

Charles Eide: Geez. That’s so cool. 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Charles Eide: I’m so happy you did that. 

Pat Lencioni: Thank you. Thank you. And if there’s anybody, there’s plenty of people out there that are in the midst of that, or are on the verge of that, or have come through that, and I think it’s good to share that with people ’cause- Yeah … it’s sometimes what we need to do.

Charles Eide: Even a, even an author who seems to have all the answers [00:49:00] It’s so, it’s so beautiful. I mean, it’s so much of who you are. So I wanna ask you about, you had mentioned your faith is really important. Do you think that that, do you think that that has influenced the decisions you, you make every day? 

Faith, Personal Transformation & Deep Work [49:20]

Pat Lencioni: Yes, but in, in new ways now.

Charles Eide: Tell me about that. 

Pat Lencioni: Well, in the long- for the longest time, sometimes we, we have faith, but we think it’s proven, and it, it’s that, that, that I have to… And it has to do with how we’re raised and, and oftentimes our parents raise us that way thinking, “I want you to be successful, so I’m gonna kinda withhold affirming you because if I, if I make you too comfortable, then you’ll stop striving.”

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: I mean, you can see that. I’m gonna 

Charles Eide: keep you hungry by starving you. 

Pat Lencioni: Exactly. And, and, and it’s not cruel. I mean, it, it’s, it, it- It can 

Charles Eide: feel cruel. 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah. And so for years I did that. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And I, um… And so, so though I had strong faith, I didn’t have faith that I was enough. It was like I had to keep proving it.[00:50:00] 

And so what, what happened was I finally was like, “Yeah, I don’t think I can do this anymore.” 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And, and so a big part of what I did was not just go back and look at what had happened to me, but actually I spent so much time just like, “Okay, God, why, why do you love me?” 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: You know? 

Charles Eide: What did he tell you? 

Pat Lencioni: He just…

Because he made me. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: You know? We’re his children. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: Wow. I mean, it’s like… And I, for years I just never slowed down long enough to think about it ’cause I thought, “Ah, how, why would he do that?” ‘Cause I haven’t done anything lately. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: You know, and growing up it was like, “Well, what’s next?” 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: You know what that’s like.

Yeah. You know, it’s like, “Oh, we got to that. And what’s next?” 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And it’s like, no, you actually don’t have to prove anything. 

Charles Eide: So that leads me to an interesting thought. You had said, back to the work part- Yeah … where you’ve, you find, you find a way to be yourself- Yes … and, and, and thrive in being you. But how do you contrast that?

‘Cause it’s a, it’s easy to blur this [00:51:00] idea where, “Hey, you just be yourself. You don’t have to do anything. Just be you.” And then you’re like, “Well, I don’t have to improve. I don’t have to work on anything.” Ah. I, I… Like, how do you- 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah … 

Charles Eide: how do you draw that line and help people understand the difference? 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah.

So you… The, here, here is what it is. Be the best version of you. Because being you doesn’t mean that you don’t try. Being you means you’re gonna look at who you’re meant to be, and you’re gonna do the very best with that. And that means you’re never done, but you’re not doing it out of fear. You’re doing it out of, “I wanna be who I am.”

And, like, so we did the Working Genius assessment, and it’s like, “I wanna know what you’re great at.” 

Charles Eide: Yeah. “

Pat Lencioni: I also wanna know what you suck at.” 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: So that you can go to the people around you and go- You guys know that I suck at this, right? And they can go, “You totally do.” You mean we can say that? But see, up until then we go, “I don’t think I should admit that.

I should…” In fact, a lot of people think they should get good at the things they’re not good at. 

Charles Eide: [00:52:00] Okay, that, I wanna understand that. 

Pat Lencioni: No, don’t do that. Celebrate the people that are good at the things that you’re not good at and say, “I love that you’re, you’re good at that. I admire you for that, ’cause I don’t have any of that.

I wanna raise you up to be who you are, and then I can be who I am, and together it will be amazing.” 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: Versus judging them for not being good at what you’re at, or feeling guilty for not being as good as they are. Now, does that mean you should never have to do things you don’t like to do? No, we all have to.

And being a parent, you know that. Oh, 

Charles Eide: dang it. 

Pat Lencioni: Like, you and I have the same working frustrations- Mm-hmm … that we’re gonna talk about. But we ha- sometimes our kids ask us to do things, and it’s the right thing to do for them, and it’s not the thing we love the most. But we- 

Charles Eide: I have such a relevant idea or, uh, experience of that this last week.

I won’t get into it. Right. But I was like, “I’m not good at this.” 

Pat Lencioni: And you know what you can do? You can go like this, “I’m not good at this,” smile and go, “I’m gonna do it for them, God.” “And you know I’m not good at this, and I couldn’t do it as well as they are. But I [00:53:00] need to, and I’m gonna offer it up. And I’m gonna do my very best at this, and it won’t be great, but it’ll be my best.”

Where in the past we would go, we’d either try to get out of it, or we would try to prove that we were good at it- Mm … or we’d feel terrible about ourselves for not being good at it and try to master it. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: Ah, it’s misery. 

Charles Eide: Maybe so, so I, so I can’t try and get out of it. Dang it. 

Pat Lencioni: Well, whenever… Only when you’re allowing somebody else to do something that makes them happier.

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: Like, if there’s another person standing there that would like to do it, and you go, “Well, I, if you would like to do this, this is hard for me, and you’re not the only one,” yeah, that’s actually, that’s a gift. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: But when it’s like, “Only the dad can do it.” Yeah. Your kids say, “Dad, I need this from you.” “Well, sorry son, I don’t have tenacity.”

“So I’m not gonna finish this for you.” “

Charles Eide: I have no follow through.” 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah. “

Charles Eide: I can get you started, but…” 

Pat Lencioni: Oh my gosh. I mean, I can’t tell you how many nights I’ve come home from a talk late at night, and they go, “I need help with math homework.” 

Charles Eide: Oh, yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: Ooh. And I would just be like, [00:54:00] “Oh, I hated math homework. All right.

Let’s go.” 

Charles Eide: See, now I have ChatGPT to help me. I know. There was none of that for me. I’m like, “Let me introduce you to my f- Okay. So you, you developed a few years back The Working Genius. Six- By accident … by, by accident. Absolutely. So, T- before we get into this, how did you come up with this? You said it’s an accident.

The Working Genius Assessment [54:23]

Pat Lencioni: So right after COVID, all work was happening on, on Zoom, and I was in California then, so it was like we were shut 

Charles Eide: down for- I remember, uh, you know, we, you were my last show before COVID. 

Pat Lencioni: The day before … 

Charles Eide: the day before they killed everything. It was you and me and that big show, and we got after 

Pat Lencioni: it And we were hugging everybody and shaking hands and sweaty.

And the next day they were like “Nobody should be within six feet of each other.” And we found out now that was crap. But, but yeah, y- that show. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And so then we shut down. Yeah. And then about three months later we started going into the office again, ’cause we were small, and in California they were shut down for a year.

But, but, but… And so all of our [00:55:00] work was on Zoom. And so one day I had a Zoom call with… And you guys actually helped us with some of this stuff. And we, I loved your employees. I do. Yeah. And, um, we had a Zoom call with a bunch of priests where I was teaching them leadership and management stuff. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And I was really excited.

And then I had a Zoom call with a bunch of people that were working on that with me, and I had to tell them they needed to work harder. I hate that. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And then I had another meeting where we came up with a new idea for a podcast, and I love that. So I went from, like, excited to bummed to excited, and Amy said to me, “Why are you like that?”

I said, “What do you mean?” And she goes- … “Why do you…” And I was pretty sure I wasn’t manic, but she’s like, “You c- you’re all excited sometimes, then you’re really bummed, and then you’re excited.” And I remember that day I was like, “I don’t know, but I’ve been like this for too long and I wanna figure it out.” And so I literally- At least you’re 

Charles Eide: aware.

Pat Lencioni: Yeah. Well, and I, and I was like, “I gotta figure this out.” And so I literally did what I love to do and I went to a whiteboard with a pen and a, an empty whiteboard, and I said, “Okay, what am I doing when I’m excited? What am [00:56:00] I doing when I’m bummed? What am I, what in the middle?” And we came up with, in about four hours, six circles, and we were like, “These are the six activities that define work.”

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: I mean, there’s no more than this. It’s like that kind, that kind, that kind, that kind, that kind, that kind. And I was like, “I love those two. Ooh, ooh, I hate those two.” 

Charles Eide: Yes. “

Pat Lencioni: And these two I don’t really like, but I have to do this one every day and it gets me bummed out,” and that’s what’s been going on. And we figured out that I was getting bummed out when I kept having to do one of the things I wasn’t great at.

And we ju- we thought we were just solving a problem for me. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And then somebody saw it, and they shared it with a CEO client the next day. The CEO was like, “Yeah, I’m really frustrated,” and they said, “Hey, I have this model,” literally the next day. And he had tears in his eyes. He was like, “That’s, that’s, that’s, that’s my whole problem right there.”

And so we started developing this- So a total accident. Total accident. I did not sit down- Totally … and go, “The world needs another model.” “And [00:57:00] I need to write a book.” And so I had a, a whiteboard at home, ’cause it was COVID, and we wrote it on there. Everybody who came over to our house would go through it with us.

And five months later we, we, we came up with an a- assessment. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And it just took off. And we’ve barely done marketing around it. We’re just starting to do a lot of marketing around it. Yeah. But people were writing to us going, “This has changed my marriage. It’s changed my team at work. It’s changed my, my leadership.”

And we couldn’t… It was, it was an accident. Praise God. 

Charles Eide: Well, it’s so much different than all the assessments, right? It’s so much… I, I mean, you were talking about making things simple. It’s so much simpler. 

Pat Lencioni: A Harvard professor recently… I got a call. This guy, one of our consultants said a Harvard professor saw it and said, “This is the least,” or the, the, the least judgmental and the most…

Like, there’s no, there’s no negative in this because it’s all about what gives you joy and energy. Yeah. And, and nobody’s… Everybody’s glad to tell people what gives them joy and [00:58:00] energy. For sure. And it’s actually awesome to tell people what drains you of joy and energy. 

Charles Eide: Yeah, it is. It’s kind of liberating.

Pat Lencioni: Exactly. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. If you asked my team, they’d be like, “Oh, yeah, trust me.” 

Pat Lencioni: Right. And now people can say things to me like somebody could go up to me and go, “You’re a little flaky, aren’t you?” And because I don’t have E and T, which is the an- antithesis, I’d be like, “Yeah, I am, huh?” Not because I don’t care, but I’m terrible at finishing things.

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And somebody else you could go up to and go, “You’re not very creative, are you?” And they go, “No, I’m not.” And it’s, like, not a criticism. 

Charles Eide: No, it’s liberating. 

Pat Lencioni: It’s liberating. Yeah. And so now the next time I need to finish on something, I can go to somebody, “I need your help,” or, “I need you to consult to me.”

Yeah. Or, “You’re my editor, Tracy. You need to force me to do this against my will.” And somebody else can go, “Somebody just gave me a project that they think w- sounds fun, but I have no creativity. Would you help me?” And suddenly we’re not ashamed of who we are. We’re actually allowing other people to speak into us.

Charles Eide: Yeah, you’re empowered. [00:59:00] 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah. 

Charles Eide: So we’ve got the working gen- You… I did my… Uh, Sarah was so kind. She’s… Speaking of, uh, follow through, Sarah printed off my working genius. And so, so the… there are six little gears, if you will. Yep. You have galvanizing, invention, dis- 

Pat Lencioni: Those are your geniuses. 

Charles Eide: Those are my geniuses.

Pat Lencioni: That’s like pouring coffee into a Yeti mug and screwing the lid on tight. That… You can be energized if you’re doing those two all day long. 

Charles Eide: Yes. 

Pat Lencioni: You can… At the end of 12 hours, you unscrew that lid, and the coffee’s hot. You’re still like, “I’m having a great day.” “But you’ve been going for 12 hours.” “I know, but I love this kind of work.”

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: The two at the bottom- Let’s 

Charles Eide: see. Before you move on to those- Yeah … does the… Are we, are we… ‘Cause you and I are… I think we have the same, right? 

Pat Lencioni: No, no, no, no, no. No? I don’t have the G. 

Charles Eide: Oh, okay, so but is my… Am I… Do I wear people out? 

Pat Lencioni: Okay. Here’s the… Let me tell you about you. 

Charles Eide: Are my producers… Sarah’s laughing right now.

Pat Lencioni: This is so great, the people in the room. I wish they could come sit around the table and talk about this. 

Charles Eide: No, that would 

Pat Lencioni: be bad. You are called the- [01:00:00] Evangelistic innovator 

Charles Eide: Okay 

Pat Lencioni: You love to c- you, you’re a fount of new ideas all the time, and you love to get people excited 

Charles Eide: Yes 

Pat Lencioni: That’s kinda why you’re doing this pod.

You’re like- Yeah … I’m gonna tell you about a new thing I learned, and I can, I can get ex- people excited all day. You’re, you… It’s like you love to inspire and, and, and, and move people. And, and, and the thing about it is, is whenever you meet an, an IG for the first time, this has been true my whole life, and it’s true about you, too, and I’ve known you a long time- Yeah

I never believe they’re, they’re sincere when I first meet them, ’cause I think nobody could be possibly be this enthusiastic about so many things. And I think that, that has to be fake. And then you meet them a third time and you go, “He’s always like this.” Yeah Because they are some of the most, like, enthusiastic and, and, and fun, and, like, another great idea and another one.

And the funny thing is, and if, if, if somebody says, “I don’t know if that idea’ll work,” you’ll be like, “That’s okay, I got another one.” 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: But, but to know that is great. But you know th- there’s people that those two things are their opposite. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And [01:01:00] if you said, “I need you to come up with a new idea and go sell it to a bunch of people,” they would be like- 

Charles Eide: I quit

Pat Lencioni: I quit. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And I hire people, and I think they’re gonna like the work I do. I hired a guy that sits right over here, and he’s got my frustrations. And when I hired him, I said, “Here’s your job. You’re gonna come up with your own job title. You decide what it should be. You decide what success looks like, what failure looks like.

You do whatever you think is the right thing to do.” And he was like, “You’re crushing me.” I said, “What do you mean? That’s the best job in the world.” He goes, “No, that’s hell for me.” Yeah. “I wanna know what my, what’s, what’s expected of me. I wanna know what my boundaries are. I wanna know what succe- what, what, what the, the end looks like.”

Yeah. “And I want the parameters laid out.” And I realized, oh my gosh, he’s actually wired completely opposite than me, and that’s awesome. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: So anyway, you’re an 

Charles Eide: IG. Okay, so I’m an IG. So you have galvanizing, which means… 

Pat Lencioni: Whi- which means rallying the troops, getting out in front of people- 

Charles Eide: Yeah … 

Pat Lencioni: selling, inspiring, provoking, and encouraging.

Charles Eide: [01:02:00] Yep. Okay, that makes sense. And then invention, that’s like coming up with new stuff. 

Pat Lencioni: What about this? 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: What about this? 

Charles Eide: Okay. Okay. Okay, so then my competencies, does that mean, like, I can do it, but I’m not great and I don’t love it? 

Pat Lencioni: That’s the coffee cup you pour coffee into and you put a little plastic lid on it.

It’ll stay warm for a while. Eventually it’ll lose its, its thing. It’s, it doesn’t crush you, but it’s not gonna, it’s not gonna motivate you for a long time. 

Charles Eide: Okay. That makes sense. 

Pat Lencioni: There, the, the areas in the middle where you’re like, “I could do some of that.” 

Charles Eide: Yeah. Yeah, so that, for me, that’s discerning- discernment and wonder.

Pat Lencioni: Right. 

Charles Eide: So discernment’s the ability to kinda figure out what’s, what’s a good idea, what’s not. 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah, like to look at a bunch of things and curate them and go, “I think that’s best.” That one needs work 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: Ooh, this one’s great. 

Charles Eide: I see. 

Pat Lencioni: And it’s gut feel. It’s, it’s pattern recognition and it’s intuition. 

Charles Eide: Yeah.

Pat Lencioni: It’s not linear. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: It’s not based on data or expertise. It’s based on this ability to kinda look at things- 

Charles Eide: Yeah … 

Pat Lencioni: and, and size them up. 

Charles Eide: It’s like x-ray vision almost. 

Pat Lencioni: It is. Like, one of the women on my team, a co-founder, Tracy, who’s my [01:03:00] book editor, didn’t study book editing. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: You can ask Tracy about anything.

Like, “Hey, Tracy, should I refinance my home?” She’s not an expert on that, but she’ll go, “Well, let me think. How long have you lived there? What’s going on? Huh, I don’t know. My gut says this is not a good time for you.” And it’s like sh- when she was a little girl, her friends would always go, “Ask Tracy.” 

Charles Eide: Oh, really?

Pat Lencioni: Yeah. And, and Tracy reads my books. She didn’t study literature. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: She reads my books, and the characters, she goes, “This character doesn’t ring true.” So you get 

Charles Eide: x-ray vision. 

Pat Lencioni: Right. Yeah. And I’m like, “I, I believe her.” Yeah. If she’s troubled by it, there’s something there. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. Yeah, okay. That makes sense. And then wonder.

What is wonder? 

Pat Lencioni: Ooh, wonder is the most foreign of all the things. Wonder is the genius of pondering things. Most people who have the genius of wonder have never been rewarded for it, or even nobody’s ever told them it was… But it’s where everything starts. Remember I told you when this started it was Amy turned to me and said, “Why are you like that?”

It’s somebody who goes, “Do you think our customers are happy?” Often they say things like, “I wonder if there’s a better way to [01:04:00] do this.” 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: Why does this even exist? Mm. The, it’s that asking the big question that always precedes the invention. And we don’t think about it that way, but every invention was because somebody came along and said, “I think that there has to be a better way.”

Yeah. They don’t know necessarily what the better way is, but they asked the big question. These are the kids in school that the teacher said, “Why aren’t you focused?” ‘Cause they’re like, “Because I’m just pondering.” And every organization needs them. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: Every project needs them, and yet it’s the most overlooked type.

Charles Eide: Really? 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah. 

Charles Eide: People that think things through and ponder the- 

Pat Lencioni: Yes. And they, the nuances of things are real- they’re, like, up there in their head, and they’re, like… And, and, and the good news is they’re, all of these are combined with another one. You have a pairing. Like, you’re a GI or an IG. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: That’s where the evangelistic innovator comes from.

Well, if you’re a WI- 

Charles Eide: Mm … 

Pat Lencioni: which is my wife, she’s the creative dreamer, [01:05:00] so she lives in the world of wondering and inventing. 

Charles Eide: That is so interesting. There’s so many combinations. 

Pat Lencioni: There’s 15. 

Charles Eide: 15. And 

Pat Lencioni: there’s a label that goes with each, and it’s the labels when people get to them, they’re like, “Oh, that’s totally me.”

We labored over that. We had hundreds of people on the board, and we’re like, “What is that?” And that’s when people get to it. Like, I don’t know if it’s, if it’s in this, but there’s a, in the report there’s the 15 different types explained, and, um, and it’s so helpful to know what those are. Anyway, I’ll, we’ll talk about it after 

Charles Eide: We’ll, we’ll find it.

Yeah 

Pat Lencioni: But I’m called the … I’m an ID, which means I like to invent and discern 

Charles Eide: Okay 

Pat Lencioni: That means I’m the discriminating ideator, which means I come up with new ideas, but I also evaluate them in real time. Remember when you asked me about how I write my books? 

Charles Eide: Yeah 

Pat Lencioni: I’m, I literally am writing a character, and I’m evaluating, “Would she say that?

Yeah, she would say that.” Mm. In real time 

Charles Eide: Mm 

Pat Lencioni: Whereas other people would invent, and then they’d have to give it to somebody else to look at because they, they [01:06:00] don’t do that, you know? 

Charles Eide: That’s so interesting. So you’re, you’re processing- 

Pat Lencioni: In real time … 

Charles Eide: in real time. 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah 

Charles Eide: Okay, so then we’ve got enablement and tenacity.

Tell me about these. 

Pat Lencioni: So this is your working frustration. This is the coffee cup. You pour coffee into it, and it’s got a hole in the bottom. And it just dribbles out. You’re like, this drains you of joy and energy. 

Charles Eide: Yeah 

Pat Lencioni: And it’s not … I don’t wanna say you’re bad at it. We’re usually pretty bad at the things that drain us of joy and energy.

In fact, you don’t wanna be good at it because that means you’re probably swimming way upstream. 

Charles Eide: Mm 

Pat Lencioni: It’s usually a wound that will make you good at the things you’re not … that don’t give you joy and energy. 

Charles Eide: Oh, that’s interesting. 

Pat Lencioni: I’ve had that my whole life. 

Charles Eide: Really? 

Pat Lencioni: I was taught as a kid to be enablement and tenacity.

Enablement is do whatever they ask you to do and come alongside and just help them. Now, some people get joy and energy out of that. Some people are just like, “What do you need?” And they go, “You know what I need?” And before you even tell them, they’re like, “Oh, good. I get to help you.” And that’s a beautiful gift.

I don’t have it. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: I wanna [01:07:00] help them on my terms, like what I think they need. 

Charles Eide: Yeah 

Pat Lencioni: And then the last one is tenacity, which is finish it and do it all the way through. 

Charles Eide: Yeah 

Pat Lencioni: Whereas I get bored and wanna move on to the next thing. 

Charles Eide: Yeah 

Pat Lencioni: So I was taught to be an ET ’cause that’s what they teach you in school and in sports and in your jobs.

Do whatever the professor, whatever the teacher, whatever the coach, whatever your parent says. Do it exactly the way they ask you, and finish it. So my whole life, to get, to get approved of, I was … I got really good at what I hated. Like, I never missed class in college. I recopied my notes every day. I overstudied for every test.

Well, that’s not at all consistent with my personality. Yeah I’m an, I’m an ID. I wanted to be out there coming up with new ideas. That class is … I should blow that class off. It’s not gonna matter. I couldn’t. 

Charles Eide: Yeah 

Pat Lencioni: I couldn’t actually operate the way I was wired. So you’re not meant to do that. Now, if you are an ET, that’s called the loyal finisher.

So you know what you and I are not? Mm-mm. The loyal finishers. Mm-mm. Give it [01:08:00] to Charles. He’ll get it done. It’s like- No … no, don’t give it to Charles. 

Charles Eide: Give it to Charles, and it will disappear. 

Pat Lencioni: Exactly. He’s gonna lose it. 

Charles Eide: My team is laughing right now. 

Pat Lencioni: Right? And, and what a great thing to go, “You know something, you guys?

I’m wired that way. This is not a flaw. It’s actually who I am.” Now, does that mean if I lose things I’m okay? No, it’s I’ll try my best. Yeah But don’t count on me to do the thing I’m worst at. Yeah Now, a sales call Like, you know what we need? We need a, a really good way to approach that client about this new project we have.

Let’s send Charles. Because … And you’re like, “Oh, how fun is that gonna be?” Yeah. 

Charles Eide: I hound them. I’m like, “Well, you guys should put me on a couple calls.” 

Pat Lencioni: Exactly. You know what’s crazy? Is in my career, I’ve had people, because I was too busy, cherry-pick the things, and they took me off the things I loved because they wanted to save up my energy for the things I hated.

And it [01:09:00] kinda makes sense in a perverted way. 

Charles Eide: Oh my goodness. 

Pat Lencioni: And they were killing me. 

Charles Eide: On … And this is all on purpose. 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah, because they thought, “Oh, that’s gonna crush you, so let’s, let’s, let’s take things off your schedule.” And it’s like, oh, no, ’cause those things on my schedule actually feed me. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: So you know when people say they’re burning out in their work?

Yeah. And people go, “You need to take more time off.” It’s like, “No, no, no. You need to do more of what feeds you.” 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: Sending somebody home to sit at home when they’re burned out only makes them sit and think about all the stuff they’re gonna come back and have to do. Burnout happens when we’re spending most of our time doing the work that is frustrating to us.

Charles Eide: So then that, that leads me to ask, how do I, how do I, now that I know this stuff, you know, how do I, how do I make use of it in the- Oh … stuff I do every day? 

Applying Working Genius to Your Team [1:09:46]

Pat Lencioni: First start with your team. 

Charles Eide: Okay. 

Pat Lencioni: Start with your t- start with your wife. 

Charles Eide: Okay. 

Pat Lencioni: We’re doing a, we’re doing a, a marriage webinar. Really? Because we’ve had people

A month after this came out, a guy wrote us an email, and he said, “My wife doesn’t hate me. It was [01:10:00] just her genius.” For years he thought his wife really was against him. He’s an IG like you. 

Charles Eide: Okay. 

Pat Lencioni: He’d come home with a new idea every time. She would always tell him why it might not work and why he needed to change it.

Charles Eide: Oh. 

Pat Lencioni: But that’s because she has discernment. He thought she was, like, against him. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: Literally. And he goes, “We did it on our anniversary,” and she was like, “That’s how I love you. Discernment is my gift, so when you tell me, I can see where it’s gonna go off the rails. I have to tell you.” Yeah. And he’s like, “Why can’t you just be happy for my idea?”

And she’s like, “Because I don’t want you to drive off a cliff.” ‘

Charles Eide: Cause I love you. 

Pat Lencioni: And it was crazy. So we’ve had people come up and say- So this 

Charles Eide: saved their marriage … 

Pat Lencioni: we’ve had people come up and say, “This saved my marriage.” 

Charles Eide: No way. 

Pat Lencioni: Because we’re attributing things that our spouse does to their character and their attitude about us, when in fact all they’re doing is using the gifts they have.

It’s like, “Why are you asking questions?” “Because I’m a W.” 

Charles Eide: Huh. 

Pat Lencioni: Interesting. And it’s so helpful. I mean- 

Charles Eide: So you, you, you [01:11:00] start with- Start there … start with your wife, move to your team, have your team do it, and then how … So now you get this information. How do I know person in job A … Like, how do I know they should be in that job?

Pat Lencioni: So here’s what’s great. We talk about, um, Jim Collins talks about getting the right people on the bus. That’s what we would call humble, hungry, smart. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: This is about getting them in the right seat. Okay. A person’s like, “They’re a cultural fit, but they’re struggling.” Then we’re like, “Then let’s take a look at how the job is organized and what they’re great at.”

One of my favorite stories. This guy was in an org- Because we don’t have to reorg the whole team. What you can do is just say, “How are we going about getting things done, tapping into one another’s strengths?” So two great stories. One was right after this came out. That, that CEO who saw it the second day, he almost fired one of his best employees.

So he had this woman on his team who was the, in charge of sales, and she [01:12:00] always made her number, and her, the customers and her employees loved her. She was an ET. 

Charles Eide: Okay. 

Pat Lencioni: She’s like, “I want to help you, and we’re gonna close.” It’s like the best at that kind of sales. And she was a cultural fit. The market changed, and they had to completely think differently about their sales strategy.

So he’s like, “Well, you’re in charge of sales. You have to come up with a new sales strategy.” And she’d go grind, and she couldn’t do it, and she felt terrible. And, and, and it was she- And, and he was like, “I was gonna let her go ’cause I thought, well, she’s in charge of sales. If she can’t come up with a new sales strategy, then who will?”

They did the working genius, and she’s like, “I don’t have any I or any D.” And she found a guy in marketing who was an ID and said, “Will you come to my next off-site and help me?” Which is crazy, sales and marketing actually working together. Yeah. He came to her meeting in, like, a few hours ’cause he could do this in his sleep.

Said, “What about this? So what about this? You could do this.” And they said, “Will you come to all of our off-sites and help us with this?” And he said, “Sure.” The CEO said, “I almost fired one of my best people.” 

Charles Eide: Oh. “

Pat Lencioni: Because I thought she had to be good at everything.” [01:13:00] We do this. It’s like- 

Charles Eide: We do do this. 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah. And it’s like, no, because f- hiring for fit but then put them in the right job.

My next story, a guy was going to get his performance review, and he had had a bad year, and he knew it was gonna be ugly. And it was… I, I… For the way he told me, if I remember correctly, was like, he told us that it was his manager and his manager’s manager that were coming to evaluate him. Oh, boy. So he, he knows it’s gonna be ugly.

The night before he does working genius and he’s like, “Oh, okay.” So he goes to the meeting, and he sits down, and he goes, “Hey, will you guys look at this before we start?” Genius move. I know. And he… They look at it and they’re like, “Well, no wonder you had such a terrible year. This is a horrible job for you.”

He goes, “I know.” They’re like, “Don’t we have that job in that other department? Oh my gosh, you would be awesome at that.” He goes, “I got promoted.” 

Charles Eide: Holy cow. ‘

Pat Lencioni: Cause they knew who I was and what I was great at. Mm. And most managers in the world want [01:14:00] to put you in a job where you can be wildly successful for the company and for yourself.

They just didn’t know. And what we do is we judge people. Like, he’s struggling in his job. He must be either lazy or not very smart or he doesn’t care. And it’s like once you know the working genius, you go, “Oh, no, we’re just… He’s in the wrong seat.” Yeah. “Or she’s in the wrong seat.” Yeah. It’s crazy the, the insights.

And, and it doesn’t mean you have to reorganize everything. You can go to the person in charge of marketing and go, “Hey, you know, you, you’re good at this part of marketing, but you could borrow help from this guy over here on the team, or this gal.” 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And they’re like, “Yeah, and the next time we do a project like that why don’t you come and help me with that?”

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: It’s not like you have to re- throw everything up in the air. Yeah. It’s just like- 

Charles Eide: It’s like a good sports team, right? 

Pat Lencioni: Exactly. We don’t have to trade you. We’re just gonna make sure that that guy who dribbles pretty well can help you bring the ball up sometimes. Yeah, just have some 

Charles Eide: support where you need it.

Pat Lencioni: Exactly. 

Charles Eide: That’s so interesting, ’cause it gives you the ab- the ability to really understand where somebody is gonna need more support without looking at them [01:15:00] as bad at their job. 

Pat Lencioni: Yes. 

Charles Eide: That’s, that is so huge. 

Pat Lencioni: And you know what’s awesome? Is that then you can go to your team meetings and people will actually give each other more direct, quicker, even humorous, but direct feedback, because everybody’s acknowledged this.

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: So they can go, “Okay, what are we gonna do next?” And Charles will go, “Well, I’m…” And like, “No you’re not. You’re not doing that. I’m gonna do this for you. I’m gonna tell you what you need to do, because you would forget.” And, and before this they would be like, “Does he know? Don’t do that. Oh, let me do that for you.

Oh, yeah. No, I’ll do it.” And now they can say, “No, you, you’re not great at that.” Or if you have to do it they can go, “Charles, we know you’re not good at this. Don’t forget. Write it down. We need you to follow through on this.” Yeah. And we know it’s not your genius. Yeah. And it’s, it’s an act of, it’s actually an act of grace.

Yeah. Not an act of criticism. 

Charles Eide: I’m laughing so much about this because it, it literally is like some of the interactions that I have with my team, where they’re like- Yeah … “Hey, I need, I need you to do, just [01:16:00] do this right now.” Exactly. You know? 

Pat Lencioni: I’m 

Charles Eide: like, “Ah, I don’t know if…” 

Pat Lencioni: I know you’re not an ET. Uh-huh. I know you hate this, too, but please just do this for me.

My son, last week, he works here, Matt, he went into the conference room on the other side of this wall and he put eight piles of stuff with a Post-It note, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, and said, “Hey, Pa- Dad, you have to come in here and get all this stuff done.” Everybody’d walk in and go, “What’s that?”

And he’s like, “I’m making him finish all this stuff.” And so I went in there, and just today he goes, “That was awesome last week how you did all those things.” ‘Cause he knew it was not in my thing. Yeah. So he organized it so I could just go in and grind it out. Just 

Charles Eide: get it done. 

Pat Lencioni: Right. 

Charles Eide: Yeah, so you had support- 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah

Charles Eide: in doing what you- 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah … 

Charles Eide: didn’t wanna do. 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah. 

Charles Eide: So when you look at the future of all of these things, uh, and using these tools and developing them, what is, what is next? 

What’s Next: The 80/20 Reset [1:17:01]

Pat Lencioni: Well, the what’s next for us is, is looking at the whole person, the whole leader. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And that is working [01:17:00] genius, and Myers-Briggs, and how they grew up, and where they are right now, and how much peace do they have.

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: And looking at all of it together, and helping them just kinda look across it all and go, “Here’s probably two or three things you could work on.” We think the world of personal and professional development is far too specialized, and that there needs to be more- generic, uh, generalist helping people go, “I think that these are your two areas for improvement.”

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: Because we looked at the whole person. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: Too often you go like, “I need to get in shape.” So you go to a guy, and he’s gonna get you injured because he’s gonna take you too deep on this. Right. I need spiritual direction, and they’re gonna go, “Okay, I’m gonna tell you all about the history of the Bible in, in, in the next two weeks.”

Or, “I need marriage work. I’m gonna do this. I need, I need work on, on my management team.” So a management consultant’s gonna take you through six months of this. It’s like, hey, maybe we could start by just looking at who you are and looking across the whole picture, and then you can go deep in those areas because you understand how it all fits [01:18:00] together.

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: Does that make sense? 

Charles Eide: Yeah. So it’s, it’s looking at the whole person. 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah. 

Charles Eide: So are you gonna call it Working Genius? Or are you gonna call 

Pat Lencioni: it- No, Working Genius is a part of it. Uh, you’re the first person I’m gonna tell. It’s called 80/20 Reset. 

Charles Eide: Oh. So it’s- I love 80/20. 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah, me too. And it’s like, listen, we’re gonna do it quickly.

You’re gonna fill out an assessment. We’re gonna go over it with you. You’re gonna go home and socialize it with, with people close to you. We’re gonna meet with you again. We’re gonna look for the low-hanging fruit, and then we’re gonna say, “Here you go. Here’s some resources.” Wow. Go, go get ’em. 

Charles Eide: Dang, that’s gonna be powerful.

Pat Lencioni: I think so. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. Oh, well, for a- for anybody that watches this, I’m sure that they’ll be getting the Working Genius. I think we have a special code your team gave us- Oh, cool … so we can get everybody to take it, but it has been so helpful to hear you explain this to me. 

Pat Lencioni: Pat and I spoke a lot about Working 

Charles Eide: Genius, which is a new assessment that he and his team developed that helps people identify and discover their weaknesses and their strengths in a unique way that’s never been done before.

There are [01:19:00] six different parts to that. We’ve used Working Genius at IDCOM. It’s been tremendously helpful, and I recommend you go try it yourself. 

Pat Lencioni: You know what I love to tell people? It takes 12 minutes to fill it out. 

Charles Eide: 12 minutes. 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah, and, and the re- results come back right away, and you look at it, and you’re just like, “Oh, my gosh.

I gotta show this to somebody. I’m gonna go, go home and get my husband to take this. I’m gonna go home and get my-” 

Charles Eide: It’s like validation that you’re not insane. 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah. And it’s, it’s them going, “Okay, so you’re a really good person. You don’t do that because you… You don’t forget to take out the trash ’cause you don’t care about me.

It’s just you don’t finish things.” 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: You know? 

Charles Eide: Yeah. How powerful, though. Yeah. Especially in a relationship. 

Pat Lencioni: Oh. You know, the fundamental attribution error is something I learned in… It’s probably the one thing I learned in college, and it was a psychology class that I still remember, and it was this.

When somebody does something that we find annoying, we often attribute it to their character. 

Charles Eide: Mm. 

Pat Lencioni: So that guy cut you off in traffic, and you go, “What a jerk.” 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: That guy is probably a miserable human being. Man, if I worked with him, that’d [01:20:00] be awful. And you pull up next to him and you wanna look at him like, “What a jerk.”

But you cut somebody off in traffic, and you’re like, “Oh, I, I was lost. I don’t know where I’m going. I’m in a hurry. I’m late.” We, we don’t give them the benefit of the doubt ’cause we don’t understand them. And so the more we can understand, St. Francis of Assisi said, “Seek to understand others first.” And the more we understand others, the more we give them grace, the more we get along, the more we utilize one another, and it’s a powerful thing.

Charles Eide: It’s so beautiful, and I’m so, so grateful for you, Pat. 

Pat Lencioni: This- That’s very kind of you … this is- I, I receive that. 

Charles Eide: This is, I, I, I, I really mean that. I mean, you, you’ve been, you’ve touched my life in so many ways, and I’m so, so grateful. 

Pat Lencioni: And your company has too, and I’ve worked with you on four, three or four different things in different ways.

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And every time, and it’s the people. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: It’s the people. I mean, you’re very competent, and the, and the, the product and this technology, and it works, but it’s the people I remember. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And I love it. 

Charles Eide: It’s all about them. 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah. 

Charles Eide: It really is. 

Pat Lencioni: Yeah. 

Closing Thoughts & Legacy [1:21:00]

Charles Eide: When, I always like to finish with [01:21:00] asking, what do you wanna be remembered for?

Pat Lencioni: You know, I, would, before Charlie Kirk got killed, they asked him that question, and he, and just as a person who loves Jesus and wants to help others know His love. That’s it. 

Charles Eide: Yeah. 

Pat Lencioni: And I hope my kids think about me that way, my wife, and the people I work with. That’s it. 

Charles Eide: You know, it’s funny, with all the things that you’ve done and accomplished, and these are amazing, I have to tell you that that’s one of the probably the most memorable parts about you.

Pat Lencioni: Oh. 

Charles Eide: It’s amazing. And I’m, I’m really, really, I’m humbled and I’m honored that I was able to do this with 

Pat Lencioni: you. Well, thank 

Charles Eide: you so much. I’m so grateful. 

Pat Lencioni: Thanks to your team. Yeah. 

Charles Eide: It’s great to have them. They’re amazing. Yeah. So thank you, Pat. All right. It’s great to be here. 

Pat Lencioni: God bless you, 

Charles Eide: bud. Thank you. If you liked this episode of Cleared for Takeoff, make sure you leave a comment, subscribe, turn on notifications.

Of course, share it with somebody that you think would love it. And of course, [01:22:00] check out my company, IDCOM. We do events all over the country, and if you’re looking for the best team in event production, check out idcom.com.